From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16810: 24.3.50; `with-eval-after-load' Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:00:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392830655 23251 80.91.229.3 (19 Feb 2014 17:24:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:24:15 +0000 (UTC) To: 16810@debbugs.gnu.org Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 19 18:24:22 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAsf-0007K7-A5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 18:24:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60915 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAse-00056F-Sb for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:24:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60999) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAsU-000563-20 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:24:17 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAsK-0007rd-SI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:24:10 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:59298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAsK-0007rQ-P4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:24:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAX3-0002Ax-Pb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:02:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 16810 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13928292998331 (code B ref -1); Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:02:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2014 17:01:39 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60476 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAWg-0002AG-6M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:38 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51183) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAWc-00029x-VP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:36 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAWP-0007aS-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:29 -0500 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:37453) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAWP-0007aN-QP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52811) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAWI-0003kT-Bb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:21 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAW8-0007WK-40 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:14 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:45973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WGAW7-0007W4-Ti for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:01:04 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s1JH12oL009997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:01:02 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s1JH11ZF024666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:01:01 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1JH11lO024630 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:01:01 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:85891 Archived-At: 1. The NEWS entry is not helpful enough: "This is like the old `eval-after-load', but better behaved." What does that even mean? How so? How is it like it? How is it different? What is "better" about the (unspecified) behavior difference? Why was the macro introduced? The main difference I can see, based on the available doc, is that the macro evaluates the BODY "*each time* LIBRARY is loaded". Is that considered "better behaved"? Why? That important difference (assuming the manual is correct about that) is not even mentioned in the doc string. And it is not stressed in the Elisp manual - you have to read carefully to get it. Other, obvious differences, which I can hardly imagine to constitute "better" behavior and so call for introducing this macro, let alone replacing `eval-after-load' with it, are (a) that it is a macro, so you do not need to quote its arg (and so cannot pass it something to be evaluated) and (b) that it uses an implicit `progn'. What else is different? 2. The doc string is not helpful enough. Compare the doc string of `eval-after-load' with this doc string. Someone actually tried (and succeeded) to describe what `eval-after-load' does. 3. Elisp manual: `eval-after-load' is referenced multiple times, but it is not described/specified. Its description has been removed from the manual. It needs to be reinstated. The Elisp manual says that`eval-after-load' is primarily for users (e.g., in their init files), not for Lisp libraries. But the Emacs manual also does not describe it. This does not help users. The doc for both `eval-after-load' and `with-eval-after-load' is now incomplete and confusing. 4. Posts here and there (e.g., http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-02/msg00270.html) suggest that `eval-after-load' is being replaced by `with-eval-after-load'. All the more reason to document the proposed new at least as well as the old was documented. 5. I can find no proposal or discussion of `with-eval-after-load' in either emacs-devel or the bug list. It seems to have just appeared, followed by a few statements here and there suggesting that it is replacing `eval-after-load'. What happened to proposal > discussion > implementation & doc? What problem is this solution trying to solve? In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-02-11 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116410 lekktu@gmail.com-20140211204823-l9l2s6tktfitq266 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include'