* Feeling lost without tabs @ 2014-07-20 1:47 Sampath Weerasinghe 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan ` (5 more replies) 0 siblings, 6 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Sampath Weerasinghe @ 2014-07-20 1:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi, I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that remind me which project I was last working on. I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also takes a a lot of screen real estate. I'm wondering how others overcame this. -Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe @ 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 4:27 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 2014-07-20 6:25 ` Filipp Gunbin ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. > > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. You might want to have a look at tabbar-mode. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 4:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-20 5:12 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 5:22 ` Feeling lost without tabs Tak Kunihiro [not found] ` <mailman.5729.1405830475.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 4:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 11:08:06 +0700 > From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> > Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > > remind me which project I was last working on. > > > > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. > > You might want to have a look at tabbar-mode. That's one way. Another one is to have separate frames dedicated to different projects/activities. You switch to a frame when you need to get back to the project/activity specific to that frame. Each frame in Emacs "prefers" the buffers used in that frame, so switching between buffers within a frame is likely to be easy, without mixing buffers from other frames. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 4:27 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 5:12 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 6:09 ` Eli Zaretskii ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 5:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >> You might want to have a look at tabbar-mode. > > That's one way. Another one is to have separate frames dedicated to > different projects/activities. You switch to a frame when you need to > get back to the project/activity specific to that frame. Each frame > in Emacs "prefers" the buffers used in that frame, so switching > between buffers within a frame is likely to be easy, without mixing > buffers from other frames. How do *you* switch buffers preferred by the current frame? In plain uncustomized Emacs, the ways of switching buffers are: * C-x <left> and C-x <right>. For me, these conveniently work for up to two buffers. After that, I start forgetting which way to each of the buffers, and after three, it gets tedious just to repeat keystrokes. * C-x b, followed by typing a buffer name, possibly using completion. This requires holding buffer names or at least their prefixes in one’s head. Additionally, completion does not honor frame boundaries. * C-x C-f with a file path/name of an existing buffer, assuming the target is a file buffer. Roughly the same inconveniences as above. * C-x C-b, followed by choosing a buffer from the list. This also ignores frame boundaries and involves switching to an intermediate buffer that occupies the whole window. To switch buffers efficiently, I need a visual representation of their relative order so that I can roughly estimate the number of times I need to press a switching key combo; tabbar-mode gives me that concisely and unobtrusively and, with a suitable grouping function, also relevantly to the frame. (Alternatively, I could do with numbered buffers with tabbar showing the numbers and Alt+[1-9] switching to the indicated buffer.) I assume OP feels similarly. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 5:12 ` Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 6:09 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-20 16:48 ` Yuri Khan [not found] ` <mailman.5771.1405874938.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 7:19 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5741.1405840784.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 6:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 12:12:41 +0700 > From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> > Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > How do *you* switch buffers preferred by the current frame? "C-x b". The preference thing is automatic. > To switch buffers efficiently, I need a visual representation of their > relative order AFAIK, each frame orders the buffers separately, so I don't see why you would have a problem here. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 6:09 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 16:48 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-21 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5771.1405874938.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 16:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >> To switch buffers efficiently, I need a visual representation of their >> relative order > > AFAIK, each frame orders the buffers separately, so I don't see why > you would have a problem here. The problem here is that I need to see the list before I start pressing keys. The workflow with tabbar is: eyes see tabs, fingers repeatedly press M-S-<right>, eyes confirm that the desired tab is highlighted, fingers stop pressing keys. With buffer-list, it is similar except the list is more verbose. The workflow with C-x b is: fingers press C-x b, eyes see the default next buffer, brain tests if that’s the right one. It’s not, A: so fingers press <down>, eyes read the next buffer name, brain tests if that’s the right one, if not, repeat from A:. Finally, fingers press RET. The cognitive load (roughly, the number of eyes-brain-fingers roundtrips) is much worse in the second case as the operations cannot be done concurrently. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 16:48 ` Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-21 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:48:52 +0700 > From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> > Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > >> To switch buffers efficiently, I need a visual representation of their > >> relative order > > > > AFAIK, each frame orders the buffers separately, so I don't see why > > you would have a problem here. > > The problem here is that I need to see the list before I start pressing keys. Only if there are a lot of them. Keep your frames project-specific, and there won't be too many of them you'll need to remember. E.g., with programming projects, I normally switch to a buffer via some tags-related command, so I don't even need to remember the buffer name. And if I need to switch to a buffer visiting a specific source file, then I know that buffer's name by definition. Etc. etc. > The workflow with C-x b is: fingers press C-x b, eyes see the default > next buffer, brain tests if that’s the right one. A frame can display more than a single buffer, so you don't need to switch buffers so frequently. And when you do switch, even if you do that with "C-x b", chances are it's the buffer displayed previously in the same window, so no such complex procedure is needed. I usually just press "C-x b RET" without even looking. > The cognitive load (roughly, the number of eyes-brain-fingers > roundtrips) is much worse in the second case as the operations cannot > be done concurrently. Granted, you are happy with your workflow, as much as I'm happy with mine (for many years now). You asked me how do I manage my buffers, and I told you. We don't need to prove each other that the other's workflow is worse. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 16:48 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-21 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-22 3:51 ` Yuri Khan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-21 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > The workflow with C-x b is: fingers press C-x b, eyes see the default > next buffer, brain tests if that’s the right one. It’s not, A: so > fingers press <down>, eyes read the next buffer name, brain tests if > that’s the right one, if not, repeat from A:. Finally, fingers press > RET. You might like to try icomplete-mode. And you might like to M-x report-emacs-bug requesting that the list of completions in icomplete-mode (for C-x b) sort buffers "for the current frame" before others. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-22 3:51 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-22 3:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 9:15 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote: > You might like to try icomplete-mode. > And you might like to M-x report-emacs-bug requesting that the list of > completions in icomplete-mode (for C-x b) sort buffers "for the current > frame" before others. What I actually do is three things. * First, there is tabbar-mode with a grouping function that assigns a single group to each window (not frame) and groups buffers by the window they were last seen in. (The “last seen in” information is tracked by a hook.) I use M-S-<left>/<right> to switch tabs and never switch groups. * Second, M-S-<down> calls ibuffer (in the current window), allowing me to select a buffer if it’s too far away or bring a buffer from a different window. * Third, M-S-<up> is bound to dired-jump, letting me navigate buffers according to the filesystem-based relationships. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5771.1405874938.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 18:40 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 3:56 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes: > The workflow with tabbar is: eyes see tabs, fingers > repeatedly press M-S-<right> You can of course reconfigure that to something that doesn't involve reaching for the arrow keys. I had to do that with w3m because they also had long and far keystrokes for moving between the tabs as default. This was even more bizarre since w3m isn't a "type mode" - the entire keyboard (including single keys: "a", "f", etc.) is available! I found that "j" and "l" are good chaises for horizontal movement, and likewise "i" and "k" for vertical. Again, where they are on they keyboard, and where your fingers are... With tabs, and a buffer you'd type in, you'll need a prefix, of course, but the rest is applicable just the same... -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 18:40 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 3:56 ` Yuri Khan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-21 3:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote: >> The workflow with tabbar is: eyes see tabs, fingers >> repeatedly press M-S-<right> > > You can of course reconfigure that to something that > doesn't involve reaching for the arrow keys. I don’t need to — on my keyboard the arrow keys are a good deal closer to the home row than on conventional PC keyboard. In fact, I can press <right> with a two-row curl of the right pinky. Search for “Truly Ergonomic” if interested. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 5:12 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 6:09 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 7:19 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5741.1405840784.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-20 7:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Yuri Khan wrote: > How do *you* switch buffers preferred by the current frame? I bind C-x C-b to electric-buffer-list. I couldn't live without it now. In MNHO it is soooo much nicer than list-buffers. (global-set-key "\C-x\C-b" 'electric-buffer-list) ; originally list-buffers Then C-x C-b C-n C-n ... C-n SPACE to select a buffer. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5741.1405840784.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 18:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 23:48 ` Dan Espen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > I bind C-x C-b to electric-buffer-list. I couldn't > live without it now. In MNHO it is soooo much nicer > than list-buffers. Could you just short say what the differences are and how you experience them to be better? I never used `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the same at first glance. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 18:36 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 23:48 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 0:29 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 16:25 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5823.1405959942.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-20 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > >> I bind C-x C-b to electric-buffer-list. I couldn't >> live without it now. In MNHO it is soooo much nicer >> than list-buffers. > > Could you just short say what the differences are and > how you experience them to be better? I never used > `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the same at > first glance. Yes, it does, but in each way it differs, it's better. It's been so long since I switched that I can't enumerate the differences. Space selects. You can mark multiple buffers for deletion. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 23:48 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 0:29 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 1:08 ` Charles Philip Chan 2014-07-21 2:25 ` Dan Espen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 0:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: >> Could you just short say what the differences are >> and how you experience them to be better? I never >> used `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the >> same at first glance. > > Yes, it does, but in each way it differs, it's > better. It's been so long since I switched that I > can't enumerate the differences. OK, I like `buffer-menu' because it replaces the whole window where the command is given. (But I take it that can be configured for `list-buffers' and the `electric-buffer-list' as well.) But I've spent some time configuring the `buffer-menu', and I have no complaints, so I won't switch, but it is interesting that at least three so alike solutions to do more or less the same thing are shipped with Emacs. Not that I mind, let a thousand flowers bloom... But normally you don't see that. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 0:29 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 1:08 ` Charles Philip Chan 2014-07-21 2:25 ` Dan Espen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Charles Philip Chan @ 2014-07-21 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 738 bytes --] Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > but it is interesting that at least three so alike solutions to do > more or less the same thing are shipped with Emacs. Not that I mind, > let a thousand flowers bloom... But normally you don't see that. Not part of Emacs, but after trying many options, I have happily settled on using Helm[1] (formally Anything) for completions. For buffers there is helm-buffers-list[2]. Here is a wiki to show you what Helm can do[3]. Charles Footnotes: [1] https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm [2] https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/wiki#helmforbuffers [3] https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/wiki -- "Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX." (By Stephan Zielinski) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 0:29 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 1:08 ` Charles Philip Chan @ 2014-07-21 2:25 ` Dan Espen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 2:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > >>> Could you just short say what the differences are >>> and how you experience them to be better? I never >>> used `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the >>> same at first glance. >> >> Yes, it does, but in each way it differs, it's >> better. It's been so long since I switched that I >> can't enumerate the differences. > > OK, I like `buffer-menu' because it replaces the whole > window where the command is given. electric will take as much room as it needs, but looks like it will leave 3 lines visible. It's been so long, but it's one of the things I liked. > (But I take it that > can be configured for `list-buffers' and the > `electric-buffer-list' as well.) But I've spent some > time configuring the `buffer-menu', On the wiki I wrote up how to font-lock the electric buffer list. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 18:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 23:48 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 16:25 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-22 0:57 ` Robert Thorpe [not found] ` <mailman.5823.1405959942.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-21 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg wrote: > Bob Proulx writes: > > I bind C-x C-b to electric-buffer-list. I couldn't > > live without it now. In MNHO it is soooo much nicer > > than list-buffers. > > Could you just short say what the differences are and > how you experience them to be better? I never used > `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the same at > first glance. As others have said it opens a buffer window, places the point at the first file in that buffer window. This shows me a buffer window list and focuses there. I can review my buffer windows. Hitting SPACE selects a buffer window. If I hit SPACE immediately then I return to the same buffer window I left. Otherwise I can n, n, n down to the buffer window I want and SPACE to select it. The newly selected buffer now replaces the previously selected buffer window. The new emacs window configuration with regard to split windows is the same for all other windows but the currently focused window only is changed to another buffer. I had previously said C-n C-p to move through the menu list. But of course n and p also work. I usually already have my finger on the control so had not really taken notice of the flexibility. With list-buffers the buffer list splits the current frame into two windows and puts the buffer window list into the other window. Whatever buffer I had in the other split window is now gone. In order to focus on the buffer list I need to either C-x 0 or C-x o. Then in the *Buffer list* window I use n or p to position on the desired buffer. Then press f or o or any of a variety of keys to select that buffer in either the current window or the other window. The result is that with list-buffers it is disruptive to the window layout that I have active at the moment I want to switch one of the windows to a different buffer. Plus there are more steps needed to perform the same function. With electric-buffer-list bound: C-x C-b n n SPACE With buffer-list bound: C-x C-b C-o n n f C-x 4 b C-x 4 b C-x 4 b The C-x 4 b times three is the finger memory way I rotate through two windows in order to swap their contents. Because using list-buffers splits the current frame or replaces the other window in the frame it causes order of windows to be reversed from the previous arrangement. That requires a window buffer swap in order to restore the desired ordering. For example I prefer a code window above and a gdb debugger window below and not the other way around. Maybe there is a better way to use list-buffers that avoids that problem but I just looked again and I didn't see it. The window order issue is completely avoided by using electric-buffer-list since that only affects the current window and does not modify any others. I hadn't been aware of buffer-menu. Playing with it now shows that it works very similarly to electric-buffer-list. I think anyone using either buffer-menu or electric-buffer-list are in the same group and want the same thing and could use either of those almost interchangeably. I assume electric-buffer-list came first and buffer-menu duplicated the behavior since I have been using electric-buffer-list for a very many years and had not ever heard of buffer-menu before? That is my assumption until I learn otherwise. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 16:25 ` Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-22 0:57 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-22 0:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bob Proulx; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: ... > I hadn't been aware of buffer-menu. Playing with it now shows that it > works very similarly to electric-buffer-list. It behaves exactly the same as list-buffers except for how the windows are arranged when it's opened. As I was saying to Emanuel they use the same code internally. BR, Robert Thorpe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5823.1405959942.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 18:04 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 21:05 ` Bob Proulx ` (2 more replies) 2014-07-21 21:40 ` have new Gnus message not always fullscreened (was: [gnu.emacs.help] Re: Feeling lost without tabs) Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 18:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > Emanuel Berg wrote: >> Bob Proulx writes: >> > I bind C-x C-b to electric-buffer-list. I couldn't >> > live without it now. In MNHO it is soooo much nicer >> > than list-buffers. >> >> Could you just short say what the differences are and >> how you experience them to be better? I never used >> `electric-buffer-list' but it looks kind of the same at >> first glance. > > As others have said it opens a buffer window, places the point at the > first file in that buffer window. This shows me a buffer window list > and focuses there. I can review my buffer windows. Hitting SPACE > selects a buffer window. If I hit SPACE immediately then I return to > the same buffer window I left. Otherwise I can n, n, n down to the > buffer window I want and SPACE to select it. The newly selected > buffer now replaces the previously selected buffer window. The new > emacs window configuration with regard to split windows is the same > for all other windows but the currently focused window only is changed > to another buffer. > > I had previously said C-n C-p to move through the menu list. But of > course n and p also work. I usually already have my finger on the > control so had not really taken notice of the flexibility. > > With list-buffers the buffer list splits the current frame into two > windows and puts the buffer window list into the other window. > Whatever buffer I had in the other split window is now gone. In order > to focus on the buffer list I need to either C-x 0 or C-x o. Then in > the *Buffer list* window I use n or p to position on the desired > buffer. Then press f or o or any of a variety of keys to select that > buffer in either the current window or the other window. > > The result is that with list-buffers it is disruptive to the window > layout that I have active at the moment I want to switch one of the > windows to a different buffer. Plus there are more steps needed to > perform the same function. > > With electric-buffer-list bound: C-x C-b n n SPACE > > With buffer-list bound: C-x C-b C-o n n f C-x 4 b C-x 4 b C-x 4 b > > The C-x 4 b times three is the finger memory way I rotate through two > windows in order to swap their contents. Because using list-buffers > splits the current frame or replaces the other window in the frame it > causes order of windows to be reversed from the previous arrangement. > That requires a window buffer swap in order to restore the desired > ordering. For example I prefer a code window above and a gdb debugger > window below and not the other way around. Maybe there is a better > way to use list-buffers that avoids that problem but I just looked > again and I didn't see it. The window order issue is completely > avoided by using electric-buffer-list since that only affects the > current window and does not modify any others. > > I hadn't been aware of buffer-menu. Playing with it now shows that it > works very similarly to electric-buffer-list. I think anyone using > either buffer-menu or electric-buffer-list are in the same group and > want the same thing and could use either of those almost > interchangeably. I assume electric-buffer-list came first and > buffer-menu duplicated the behavior since I have been using > electric-buffer-list for a very many years and had not ever heard of > buffer-menu before? That is my assumption until I learn otherwise. buffer menu first. I think you'll find it's the default binding. Something that should have changed a long time ago. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 18:04 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 21:05 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5831.1405976742.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 21:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-21 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen wrote: > Bob Proulx writes: > > I assume electric-buffer-list came first and buffer-menu > > duplicated the behavior since I have been using > > electric-buffer-list for a very many years and had not ever heard > > of buffer-menu before? That is my assumption until I learn > > otherwise. > > buffer menu first. Hmm... I remain cautiously suspicious. :-) > I think you'll find it's the default binding. No. The default binding for C-x C-b is list-buffers. I am using the current Debian Sid Unstable version. The GNU upstream may have changed it very recently but if so that hasn't trickled down yet. emacs -Q C-h c C-x C-b C-x C-b runs the command list-buffers M-x emacs-version GNU Emacs 24.3.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.12.2) of 2014-06-06 on barber, modified by Debian > Something that should have changed a long time ago. I would agree but as far as I can see it hasn't changed. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5831.1405976742.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 21:22 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 21:47 ` Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > Dan Espen wrote: >> Bob Proulx writes: >> > I assume electric-buffer-list came first and buffer-menu >> > duplicated the behavior since I have been using >> > electric-buffer-list for a very many years and had not ever heard >> > of buffer-menu before? That is my assumption until I learn >> > otherwise. >> >> buffer menu first. > > Hmm... I remain cautiously suspicious. :-) > >> I think you'll find it's the default binding. > > No. The default binding for C-x C-b is list-buffers. I am using the > current Debian Sid Unstable version. The GNU upstream may have > changed it very recently but if so that hasn't trickled down yet. > > emacs -Q > C-h c C-x C-b > C-x C-b runs the command list-buffers Oops, sure are a lot of buffer showers. I THINK whatever has the default binding is what came first. I just feel the best one should be the default. Could be ibuffer or some other xbuffer is the best, but electric is better than the default (IMO). -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 21:22 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:57 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-07-22 2:33 ` Dan Espen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > I just feel the best one should be the default. > Could be ibuffer or some other xbuffer is the best, > but electric is better than the default (IMO). Perhaps it would make sense to merge some or many of those projects if they are so similar. In principle I don't mind lots of stuff doing more or less the same thing, and especially if it is very ambitious projects such as web browsers, mail clients, and so on, they don't have to be different even in principle because the complexity will add so many big and subtle differences anyway. However, for seemingly small projects like this one has to wonder if there isn't reinvention of the wheel going on. It wouldn't be far fetched for the users of one to miss out the features of another, and being oblivious to this as this perhaps isn't discussed so often - it is such a low profile thing, look the same, do seemingly the same things - not likely to stir controversy or be the focus of the discussion particularly often. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 23:57 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-07-22 2:33 ` Dan Espen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-21 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > >> I just feel the best one should be the default. >> Could be ibuffer or some other xbuffer is the best, >> but electric is better than the default (IMO). > > Perhaps it would make sense to merge some or many of > those projects if they are so similar. There's much more reuse than you think. The normal Emacs buffer list, the one tied to C-x C-b is 'list-buffers'. Here is the code for list-buffers with the docstring removed: (defun list-buffers (&optional arg) (interactive "P") (display-buffer (list-buffers-noselect arg))) Here is the code for buffer-menu with the docstring removed: (defun buffer-menu (&optional arg) (interactive "P") (switch-to-buffer (list-buffers-noselect arg)) (message "Commands: d, s, x, u; f, o, 1, 2, m, v; ~, %%; q to quit; ? for help.")) The one I use is buffer-menu-other-window: (defun buffer-menu-other-window (&optional arg) (interactive "P") (switch-to-buffer-other-window (list-buffers-noselect arg)) (message "Commands: d, s, x, u; f, o, 1, 2, m, v; ~, %%; q to quit; ? for help.")) So, all of them use the same underlying function: 'list-buffers-noselect', also all are in the same file: buff-menu.el. Once you're in the menu buffer they all behave exactly the same. The only major difference with electric-buffer-list is the keymap. The buffer menu is made by calling list-buffer-noselect as usual then changing the keymaps. Electric-buffer-menu-mode is derived from Buffer-menu-mode using ~300 lines of code in ebuff-menu.el. There is another buffer menu packaged with Emacs that's entirely different: ibuffer. I understand a lot of people use that, I tried to once but I've got too used to the default. BR, Robert Thorpe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:57 ` Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-22 2:33 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-22 21:28 ` Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-22 2:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > >> I just feel the best one should be the default. >> Could be ibuffer or some other xbuffer is the best, >> but electric is better than the default (IMO). > > Perhaps it would make sense to merge some or many of > those projects if they are so similar. In principle I > don't mind lots of stuff doing more or less the same > thing, and especially if it is very ambitious projects > such as web browsers, mail clients, and so on, they > don't have to be different even in principle because > the complexity will add so many big and subtle > differences anyway. However, for seemingly small > projects like this one has to wonder if there isn't > reinvention of the wheel going on. It wouldn't be far > fetched for the users of one to miss out the features > of another, and being oblivious to this as this perhaps > isn't discussed so often - it is such a low profile > thing, look the same, do seemingly the same things - > not likely to stir controversy or be the focus of the > discussion particularly often. I agree. Way too many buffer thingies. It's like each time someone comes up with an improvement we get a new one instead of the original gaining the new features and everyone benefiting. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 2:33 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-22 21:28 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > I agree. Way too many buffer thingies. It's like > each time someone comes up with an improvement we get > a new one instead of the original gaining the new > features and everyone benefiting. Exactly! Here I think the Unix philosophy applies 100%. For complicated and insanely big (and super-interactive) software like text editors, e-mail clients, shells, and so on, it is OK to have Emacs, vim, Gnus, Rmail, bash, zsh and what have you but for a small piece of software that does a limited range of things - it shouldn't be encouraged, put it that way. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5831.1405976742.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 21:22 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 21:47 ` Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > No. The default binding for C-x C-b is list-buffers. > I am using the current Debian Sid Unstable version. > The GNU upstream may have changed it very recently > but if so that hasn't trickled down yet. Yes, the same for Jessie. No, I think list-buffers is it (the default for `C-x C-b' now and then and probably won't change). -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 18:04 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 21:05 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5831.1405976742.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 21:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 21:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > buffer menu first. I think you'll find it's the > default binding. Something that should have changed > a long time ago. See: as always, I'm the techno-archeologist... Do you also happen to know why buffer-menu was "forked", if that is the term in the Emacs world as well? I use it, so I'd be interested in hearing its real and/or perceived drawbacks. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* have new Gnus message not always fullscreened (was: [gnu.emacs.help] Re: Feeling lost without tabs) [not found] ` <mailman.5823.1405959942.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 18:04 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 21:40 ` Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > I hadn't been aware of buffer-menu. Playing with it > now shows that it works very similarly to > electric-buffer-list. I think anyone using either > buffer-menu or electric-buffer-list are in the same > group and want the same thing and could use either of > those almost interchangeably. I assume > electric-buffer-list came first and buffer-menu > duplicated the behavior since I have been using > electric-buffer-list for a very many years and had > not ever heard of buffer-menu before? That is my > assumption until I learn otherwise. Well, I don't know (what was first). Yeah, it is interesting, I didn't know of either electric or buffer-list. I knew of the command `C-x C-b' but I thought that was a buffer-menu command, as another of the do-something and then do-something-other-window (or perhaps do-something-split-window). So it was interesting to learn there were so many ways to do (superficially at least) the same thing. I didn't manage to follow the description of keys, but that much I understood that you don't like changes to the window configuration. Here I agree 100%... I have managed to rid my Emacs of some of those cases which are, as you say, disruptive, but one in particular remains... To create a new message from anywhere in Emacs, I have `C-o m' bound to a function that looks for the Gnus group buffer - the assumption is that it exists if and only if Gnus runs... (Otherwise it starts Gnus and tries again.) If Gnus runs, it uses (gnus-post-news 'post "") to open an empty buffer, with the headers and so on as configured, in message-mode. However, it doesn't respect what is currently displayed - it is always fullscreened. Anyone knows how to not make that happen? The entire defun: (defun new-message () (interactive) (if (get-buffer "*Group*") (gnus-post-news 'post "") (progn (gnus) (new-message) ))) -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 4:27 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-20 5:22 ` Tak Kunihiro [not found] ` <mailman.5729.1405830475.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Tak Kunihiro @ 2014-07-20 5:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs; +Cc: tak.kunihiro > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. I make a narrow window on left-hand side and have buffer-menu. I recommend to make the window dedicated and remember, the window is dedicated by you. (defun buffer-menu-left () "Open buffer-menu at the left-hand side" (interactive) (split-window-horizontally 30) (buffer-menu t) (set-window-dedicated-p (selected-window) t)) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5729.1405830475.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-22 15:14 ` Javier 2014-07-22 15:32 ` Ken Goldman ` (2 more replies) [not found] ` <<lqlv3t$hog$1@speranza.aioe.org> 1 sibling, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Javier @ 2014-07-22 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs I think dealing with frames in windows/mac is much more difficult than in linux. In windows, having multiple frames open will overfill the taskbar. Window managers in Linux are more powerful and have better ways of dealing with multiple frames by virtual desktops or iconifying windows. Some usefuld keybindings for dealing with frames: (global-set-key [f4] 'delete-frame) ;originally bound to call-kbd-macro (also accessible with C-x e) (global-set-key [C-f4] 'delete-frame) ;; navigate frames with Shift + arrow left/right (defun other-frame-dec () "" (interactive) (other-frame '+1)) (defun other-frame-inc () "" (interactive) (other-frame '-1)) (global-set-key [S-left] 'other-frame-dec) (global-set-key [S-right] 'other-frame-inc) If you like frames you can make almost evertyhing pop up in a new frame and not have the default screen splitting-in-2 behaviour (setq pop-up-frames t) ;;; everything is opened in a new frame. You will never again see a split screen unless you ask explicitly for it with C-x 2. That has its drawbacks, like completition buffers popping up in a new frame. Sometimes the frames will remain in the background and it seems that nothing has been opened, specially in console mode. (setq frame-auto-hide-function 'delete-frame) ;;; Kill frames instead of hiding them by pressing q (in completition buffers) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >> Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 11:08:06 +0700 >> From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> >> Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> >> >> > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show >> > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, >> > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that >> > remind me which project I was last working on. >> > >> > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also >> > takes a a lot of screen real estate. >> > >> > I'm wondering how others overcame this. >> >> You might want to have a look at tabbar-mode. > > That's one way. Another one is to have separate frames dedicated to > different projects/activities. You switch to a frame when you need to > get back to the project/activity specific to that frame. Each frame > in Emacs "prefers" the buffers used in that frame, so switching > between buffers within a frame is likely to be easy, without mixing > buffers from other frames. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 15:14 ` Javier @ 2014-07-22 15:32 ` Ken Goldman 2014-07-22 21:01 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5871.1406043177.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Ken Goldman @ 2014-07-22 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs On 7/22/2014 11:14 AM, Javier wrote: > I think dealing with frames in windows/mac is much more difficult than > in linux. In windows, having multiple frames open will overfill the > taskbar. Window managers in Linux are more powerful and have better > ways of dealing with multiple frames by virtual desktops or iconifying > windows. Windows works fine if you put the taskbar on the left rather than the bottom. There's far more space, and you can read the text. Windows will also group applications if the taskbar fills and, hovering expands them menu-like. OTOH, the Linux taskbar on the side is broken, at least for gnome, since the vertical size grows as the horizontal size grows. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 15:14 ` Javier 2014-07-22 15:32 ` Ken Goldman @ 2014-07-22 21:01 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-23 0:57 ` Javier [not found] ` <mailman.5871.1406043177.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Javier <nospam@nospam.com> writes: > I think dealing with frames in windows/mac is much > more difficult than in linux. In windows, having > multiple frames open will overfill the taskbar. > Window managers in Linux are more powerful and have > better ways of dealing with multiple frames by > virtual desktops or iconifying windows. I didn't know Emacs frames were shown separately in the taskbar of GUIs. I don't use a WM, and in X I use Openbox which doesn't come with a taskbar, I think (if it does, I never saw it, and I'm happy with that). Perhaps some Gnome or KDE piece of software synch with Emacs to display not just Emacs, but is reactive to the state of Emacs as well. If so, it would be interesting to know how they do that? Is this kept in a file or otherwise made available to the outside world? > Some usefuld keybindings for dealing with frames ... I don't like your taste in keys (the function and arrow keys) because of the reach thing I've talked about many times, but cred for not only writing Elisp but also sharing it for everyone to see/use! > (setq pop-up-frames t) That didn't work for me. Or perhaps I want something else. I want everything to pop up in the same window, as it were when the command was invoked, and I don't that window to change in size. My case, (defun new-message () (interactive) (if (get-buffer "*Group*") (gnus-post-news 'post "") (progn (gnus) (new-message) ))) still (with `pop-up-frames') destroys my two-pane layout. I guess I need something like (setq keep-window-layout t)? > You will never again see a split screen unless you > ask explicitly for it with C-x 2. I do that so often I have my own shortcut for that: M-o. And it is DWIM: with one window open, M-o splits it (and does `other-window'); with two windows open, M-o is just `other-window': (defun other-window-or-split () (interactive) (if (= 1 (count-windows)) (split-window-vertically)) (other-window 1) ) I have M-p `delete-other-window' - "o" and "p" are next to each other, and require minimal hand/finger movements. > That has its drawbacks, like completition buffers > popping up in a new frame. Sometimes the frames will > remain in the background and it seems that nothing > has been opened, specially in console mode. Completions may be a special case since you are typing in the minibuffer. I think completion should be avoided but sometimes I use it as a reference. For that usage, I suppose the minibuffer and the completion of an actual command is just in the way. Perhaps the `apropos' command is better for that usage. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 21:01 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-23 0:57 ` Javier 2014-07-23 2:21 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Javier @ 2014-07-23 0:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > I don't like your taste in keys (the function and arrow > keys) because of the reach thing I've talked about many > times, but cred for not only writing Elisp but also > sharing it for everyone to see/use! [Shift+left/right arrows] is just analogous with the way you move between virtual ttys in Linux: [Alt+Left/right arrow]. In the window manager I use [WindowsKey+arrows] to move between virtual desktops. C-Tab and C-S-Tab are another obvious choice; they would move between emacs frames in the same way as you move between firefox tabs. ;; navigate frames (defun other-frame-dec () "" (interactive) (other-frame '+1)) (defun other-frame-inc () "" (interactive) (other-frame '-1)) (global-set-key [C-iso-lefttab] 'other-frame-inc) (global-set-key [C-S-iso-lefttab] 'other-frame-dec) > still (with `pop-up-frames') destroys my two-pane > layout. I guess I need something like (setq > keep-window-layout t)? (setq pop-up-frames t) is for never having the frame split in two windows. Having two windows in the same frame is the default emacs behaviour and may be ok for very big screens, but for a small screen with a big font is not good. In any case, all these things are a matter of personal taste, and fortunately emacs gives a lot of freedom to the user to configure them. No other program out there gets even close to give the freedom emacs gives. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-23 0:57 ` Javier @ 2014-07-23 2:21 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-23 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Javier <nospam@nospam.com> writes: >> I don't like your taste in keys (the function and >> arrow keys) because of the reach thing I've talked >> about many times, but cred for not only writing >> Elisp but also sharing it for everyone to see/use! > > [Shift+left/right arrows] is just analogous with the > way you move between virtual ttys in Linux: > [Alt+Left/right arrow]. In the window manager I use > [WindowsKey+arrows] to move between virtual desktops. I still don't think it is good. I have changed that for the ttys to M-j and M-l (using the Emacs notation), and set it up in X as well (by way of .xbindkeysrc) - check it out: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/remap.inc > C-Tab and C-S-Tab are another obvious choice; they > would move between emacs frames in the same way as > you move between firefox tabs. TAB is good but your keys are bulky. TAB alone, M-TAB, and S-TAB (backtab) are good. > (setq pop-up-frames t) is for never having the frame > split in two windows. Having two windows in the same > frame is the default emacs behaviour and may be ok > for very big screens, but for a small screen with a > big font is not good. What? I restrict my use to two windows because I have very few lines and very few columns compared to modern users (27 $LINES and 72 $COLUMNS). "Normal" people with desktops with huge widescreens and minimal fonts usually have like ten windows at the same time. > In any case, all these things are a matter of > personal taste, and fortunately emacs gives a lot of > freedom to the user to configure them. No other > program out there gets even close to give the freedom > emacs gives. I don't know if it is a matter of giving freedom, but the Emacs architecture with Lisp and all, the result is what you indicate. Yes, all software should be like that... -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5871.1406043177.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-22 21:03 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Ken Goldman <kgoldman@us.ibm.com> writes: > OTOH, the Linux taskbar on the side is broken, at > least for gnome ... Yes, there should be many, many taskbars for Linux systems... some should be highly configurable as well. I can't name one (or any) that behaves differently though. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* RE: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <<lqlv3t$hog$1@speranza.aioe.org> @ 2014-07-22 17:03 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-22 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Javier, help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3928 bytes --] > I think dealing with frames in windows/mac is much more difficult than > in linux. In windows, having multiple frames open will overfill the > taskbar. I'm using MS Windows 7, before that I used Windows XP, and in both cases all of my Emacs frames are iconified to the same, single Emacs icon in the task bar. I have one such icon per Emacs session. This is controlled by this Windows setting: Right-click the task bar > Properties > Taskbar buttons: "Always combine, hide labels" > Window managers in Linux are more powerful and have better ways of > dealing with multiple frames by virtual desktops or iconifying > windows. I assume you mean iconifying to the desktop (rather than what Windows does, which is iconify to the task bar). OT1H, you complain that Windows iconification fills up the task bar, and OTOH you tout other managers filling up the desktop. Hmm. (Granted, there is more space on the desktop than on the taskbar.) FWIW, on both MS Windows and GNU/Linux I iconify frames to the desktop whenever I want, using `C-z' (which also deiconifies). And I can make those icons any size I want. And those icons are actually miniature, functioning Emacs frames - thumbnail frames. (They are not window-manager icons.) I can search in them, watch log messages stream through them, scroll them,... But mainly I just use them to organize the frames I am currently working with the most. Attached are images of (a) a thumbnail frame and (b) the same, stretched to show more of the buffer. (From the size and position of the scroll-bar thumb you can tell that this is a large file.) (http://www.emacswiki.org/FisheyeWithThumbs) > Some usefuld keybindings for dealing with frames: > (global-set-key [f4] 'delete-frame) ;originally bound to call-kbd-macro > (global-set-key [C-f4] 'delete-frame) Suggestion: don't waste a repeatable key on an operation that you won't repeat (i.e., hold the key down for). Just use the predefined `C-x 5 0'. > If you like frames you can make almost evertyhing pop up in a new > frame and not have the default screen splitting-in-2 behaviour > > (setq pop-up-frames t) ;;; everything is opened in a new frame. > > You will never again see a split screen unless you ask explicitly for > it with C-x 2. Yes; `pop-up-frames' is good. Unfortunately, Emacs Dev considers this simple user convenience to be obsolete, and invites you to instead jump through the gymnastic, labyrinthine hoops of the epicyclic option `display-buffer-alist'. Fortunately, `pop-up-frames' still works fine, for the time being... And if you use non-nil `pop-up-frames' then you might prefer to let `C-x 0' delete the frame when the frame has only one window. That is what the advised version of `delete-window' in `frame-cmds.el' does: (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/download/frame-cmds.el) (defadvice delete-window (around delete-frame-if-one-win activate) "If WINDOW is the only one in its frame, then `delete-frame' too." (save-current-buffer (select-window (or (ad-get-arg 0) (selected-window))) (if (one-window-p t) (delete-frame) ad-do-it))) > That has its drawbacks, like completition buffers popping up in > a new frame. The main problem with that is that the `*Completions*' frame needs to have its input focus redirected to the frame with the current minibuffer. Library `oneonone.el' optionally does that, and it optionally uses a standalone minibuffer frame. (http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/download/oneonone.el) In addition, vanilla Emacs is still pretty poor at removing the display of `*Completions*' when it is no longer useful. Icicles takes care of this, whether or not the display is in its own frame. (http://www.emacswiki.org/Icicles) > (setq frame-auto-hide-function 'delete-frame) Yes, again. That's my choice too. [-- Attachment #2: throw-thumbnail-frame.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 9724 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: throw-thumbnail-frame-stretched.png --] [-- Type: image/png, Size: 48098 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan @ 2014-07-20 6:25 ` Filipp Gunbin 2014-07-20 9:20 ` Kevin Le Gouguec ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Filipp Gunbin @ 2014-07-20 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On 20/07/2014 05:47 +0400, Sampath Weerasinghe wrote: > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. I'm using probably the simplest method: `C-x b' offers "future history" (the sequence of suggestions when you hit `M-n' in the minibuffer) and it's isearch-able! So `C-x b' followed by `C-s' and a few letters from the name of the buffer (any part of it). The order in which the future history is organized is the same as in *Buffer List* - recent come first. Other than that, if I completely forget the names, I switch to a dired (I open each project in a dired buffer with -R ls option, so it shows all files). `(setq dired-isearch-filenames t)' helps to isearch there when I see the needed file. Filipp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 6:25 ` Filipp Gunbin @ 2014-07-20 9:20 ` Kevin Le Gouguec 2014-07-20 17:36 ` Drew Adams ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Kevin Le Gouguec @ 2014-07-20 9:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Had a similar experience. Searching for some way to manage my buffers taught me about Ibuffer: http://emacs-fu.blogspot.fr/2010/02/dealing-with-many-buffers-ibuffer.html http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/IbufferMode It basically creates a list of all your open "tabs", and you can teach it to sort stuff in meaningful categories. - comes with Emacs since version 22 - "teaching it" simply means adding a line like ("Category Name" (filename . "dir/to/category/")) to your config file. Filters can be based on file path, editing mode, file size... - I made C-x C-b open Ibuffer rather than buffer-menu. I don't find the two key strokes too taxing (tell Left Pinky to go sleep on Control, get Left Index and Right Index to hit X and B roughly at the same time, there, done. Touch typists will probably tell me I should use Left Middle or Left Ring to reach X) - the screen space is replaced by the first buffer I choose to open. Admittedly, the tabs bar on Notepad++ is always present; I got used to its absence, but I think I saw others suggesting ways to get something that stays "always on" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sampath Weerasinghe" <swe20144@gmail.com> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 3:47:47 AM Subject: Feeling lost without tabs Hi, I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that remind me which project I was last working on. I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also takes a a lot of screen real estate. I'm wondering how others overcame this. -Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* RE: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2014-07-20 9:20 ` Kevin Le Gouguec @ 2014-07-20 17:36 ` Drew Adams 2014-07-20 18:02 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-08-16 21:13 ` Marcin Borkowski 5 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-20 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe, help-gnu-emacs > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. Sounds good. Come on in. Enjoy. > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show tabs. I work on > multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, Who doesn't? ;-) > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. A couple of things... 1. Many (most?) Emacs users do not quit Emacs and restart it often. So after they get distracted by other things or take a break, and then come back to Emacs, they come back to the same Emacs session and they see where they left off. 2. Beyond that, there are many ways Emacs can help you organize and keep track of projects. Different users use different ways, and sometimes different ways for different sets of projects. Emacs Wiki has info that users have offered about how they work with projects. It can be a good place to start. This page in particular links to lots of info about using Emacs with projects: http://www.emacswiki.org/CategoryProject Wrt sets of buffers, Eli mentioned separate frames, which is one way to group buffers into sets. With Emacs 24.4 you can even save frame sets persistently (as part of saved Emacs desktops), so you can come back to them in a later Emacs session. (But that won't help much with some buffers that are not associated with files.) Another way to define sets of buffers (or files or...) is to use Emacs bookmarks. Like Emacs desktops, bookmarks can be persistent (they are by default). If you use library Bookmark+, http://www.emacswiki.org/BookmarkPlus then you can have desktop bookmarks, which means that by hitting a key you can switch to a different set of frames, buffers, etc. Bookmark+ also lets you tag bookmarks in arbitrary ways, which defines different sets of bookmarks (hence different sets of files, directories, projects,...). There are really quite a few things that Emacs has to offer in the way of organizing projects. And for just switching among buffers (which is where this thread started). Start with something like `tabbar.el' if it is close to what you are used to and what you like. But I think you will sooner or later try other things that offer you more features for navigating and organizing projects. (Oh, and try starting Emacs once and leaving it running... Emacs is not Notepad or notepad++.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2014-07-20 17:36 ` Drew Adams @ 2014-07-20 18:02 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-08-16 21:13 ` Marcin Borkowski 5 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-20 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> writes: ... > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. There are many ways to deal with this, as others have shown. I often leave Emacs open on a buffer list to remind myself of what I was doing. I remap the keys C-x LEFT and C-x RIGHT to shorter combinations (I use C-4 & C-5). If I know the buffer isn't one of the ones I've used recently I use C-x b is I know it's name, if not I use C-x C-b. I've mapped C-x C-b to buffer-menu-other-window. That only changes one thing compared to the default, it makes the cursor move to the buffer-menu. I find that useful because the buffer-menu has useful navigation keys. For example, "1" will make the selected buffer fill the whole frame. "2" is useful too, do C-h m in a buffer menu and you'll find some useful keybindings. Like Eli I tend to use tag following when I'm navigating code. BR, Robert Thorpe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2014-07-20 18:02 ` Robert Thorpe @ 2014-08-16 21:13 ` Marcin Borkowski 5 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2014-08-16 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dnia 2014-07-19, o godz. 18:47:47 Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> napisał(a): > Hi, > > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. > > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. Just my 2cents: http://mbork.pl/2014-04-04_Fast_buffer_switching_and_friends and C-z C-b and/or C-u C-z C-b are surprisingly useful for me. > -Sam Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Adam Mickiewicz University ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5726.1405828965.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-20 18:11 ` Bob Proulx ` (2 more replies) 2014-07-20 18:28 ` Emanuel Berg 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-20 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> writes: > Hi, > > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. > > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. The multiple keys part is easy: (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list) Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often? For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance. I've got the WM set to no title bar for emacs. I've got emacs customized for no toolbar and no menubar. So, all I've got in Emacs windows is text. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-20 18:11 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-20 18:34 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5777.1405879906.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-20 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen wrote: > The multiple keys part is easy: > (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list) > Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often? Since we are both using electric-buffer-list I know we are in the same group on that. It is great. :-) But as for binding to a function key to avoid C-x C-b being two keys I will respond that F9 isn't in the home row of keys. On the standard IBM PC style keyboard one must move the hands from the home row and find and hit that single key. I touch type but I would need to look to hit that one accurately. That is a much higher finger workload than simply typing two control keys from the normal finger typing position that can be done by touch typing. Although I expected that some people will raise the case that chorded keys are multiple keys. But at least in my brain chorded control keys "feel" like one keystroke and not two. Like many old Unix keyboard users I bind the capslock key to be control so that it is where it "should" be again. Then I type control keys just about as quickly and as effortlessly as any other non-control-chorded key. I live by C-x C-b C-n ... SPACE all of the time to change buffers. And to toggle back and forth between two buffers C-x b to select the previously selected buffer. It really goes very fast. > For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance. > I've got the WM set to no title bar for emacs. > I've got emacs customized for no toolbar and no menubar. > So, all I've got in Emacs windows is text. Me too to all of the above. Remove the extra fluff. Maximumize the amount of edit buffer for what I am editing. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-20 18:11 ` Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-20 18:34 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5777.1405879906.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > The multiple keys part is easy: > > (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list) Well, it is not that easy. Look on the keyboard where `C-x C-b' is and where F9 is. While I agree `C-x C-b' isn't good (too long), it is better than F9 because the function keys - as well as the arrow keys, the numeric keypad, etc. - require you to move your hand(s) away from typing position(s). They are difficult to hit so you need to look down to hit them. Then you need to reset with the same problem. I never use them. A short keystroke is not always better that a long. > Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often? > > For, me tabs would be a huge annoyance. I've got the > WM set to no title bar for emacs. I've got emacs > customized for no toolbar and no menubar. So, all > I've got in Emacs windows is text. Yes, I do the same. The OP isn't all Emacs just yet... you just wait :) -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5777.1405879906.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 21:44 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 17:02 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-20 23:52 ` Dan Espen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 21:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > Me too to all of the above. Remove the extra fluff. > Maximumize the amount of edit buffer for what I am > editing. This is even more important if you like me like a projector with huge letters and not that many letters per line. Then it is a matter of really making every line count. Besides it is a principle of mine that only a minimum information - the information that I need to do what I want to do - should enter my eyes and brain. But in this case, I think the OP considers his tabs to be in that vital category. So regardless of what we think of tabs for Emacs, we should help him find a package to get him that. As for me, I don't know of any tabs in the Emacs world except those I have already mentioned, in w3m. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 21:44 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 17:02 ` Bob Proulx 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-21 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg wrote: > Besides it is a principle of mine that only a minimum information - > the information that I need to do what I want to do - should enter > my eyes and brain. Yep. > But in this case, I think the OP considers his tabs to be in that > vital category. So regardless of what we think of tabs for Emacs, we > should help him find a package to get him that. As for me, I don't > know of any tabs in the Emacs world except those I have already > mentioned, in w3m. Oh I completely agree. I was just adding my reasoning to the discussion. Thanks for keeping focused on the original issue. In that spirit I am surprised that no one has mentioned the emacs speedbar. I am not using it and therefore I didn't mention it but perhaps that would be the right mental model for the OP? https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Speedbar.html https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/speedbar/index.html http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeedBar http://cedet.sourceforge.net/speedbar.shtml Some screenshots: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SrSpeedbar And that is all I know about it since I am not using it. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5777.1405879906.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 21:44 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 23:52 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 22:54 ` Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-20 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > Dan Espen wrote: >> The multiple keys part is easy: >> (define-key global-map [(f9)] 'electric-buffer-list) >> Why hit 2 keys for something you do so often? > > Since we are both using electric-buffer-list I know we are in the same > group on that. It is great. :-) > > But as for binding to a function key to avoid C-x C-b being two keys I > will respond that F9 isn't in the home row of keys. On the standard > IBM PC style keyboard one must move the hands from the home row and > find and hit that single key. I touch type but I would need to look > to hit that one accurately. That is a much higher finger workload > than simply typing two control keys from the normal finger typing > position that can be done by touch typing. I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys) without looking. Since they're in groups of 4 it's pretty easy. Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even though I touch type, but I do have this in my .emacs too: ;These replace the standard bindings with a better buffer list (global-set-key "\C-x\C-b" 'electric-buffer-list) ;^x^b better buff list (global-set-key "\C-xb" 'electric-buffer-list) ;^x b better buff list (Just in case.) -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-20 23:52 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-21 22:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:33 ` Bob Proulx ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys) > without looking. Since they're in groups of 4 it's > pretty easy. > > Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even > though I touch type Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you - why don't you have six keyboard - all in different colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical levels - on front, and one on each side? While I love shortcuts, actually, my dream would be to never use them but to have a complete 1-1 physical/hardware-functional/software interface. Can you imagine how cool it would be to never, ever stumble on a shortcut? I can actually get that for all the modes that don't require typing - w3m, Gnus (except for the message mode, of course), the buffer menu just mentioned, and so on. But whenever there is typing there must be shortcuts as there are so few keys left, and, typing - editing, point movements - this requires so many shortcuts. How do fighter pilots do it? Then it must be super-fast, and no "fumbling" can ever be allowed? I remember a flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18 Hornet. It took up almost the entire keyboard. It was considered very realistic (at the time) but I take it reality is even more complex. Remember that fighter pilots also cannot be allowed to "look down", just a us! Anyone knows how they do it? They say programmers often take to flying when they get rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the accursed Apple world.) -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 22:54 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 23:33 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-22 2:44 ` Dan Espen [not found] ` <mailman.5833.1405985639.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-21 23:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg wrote: > Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you - > why don't you have six keyboard - all in different > colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical > levels - on front, and one on each side? If anyone does this please post a photo! :-) > While I love shortcuts, actually, my dream would be to > never use them but to have a complete 1-1 > physical/hardware-functional/software interface. Can > you imagine how cool it would be to never, ever stumble > on a shortcut? Yes. But at some point the brain can become overloaded. I have some ham radios that have had feature creep to the point that they are no longer possible to be operated without the manual open beside them. That is bad. Was it left function, right function, then action button? Or was it push and hold left function 1s until beep, then action button? Or right function hold 1s, left function, then action? I have truly awful "computerized" radio like that. Others with less features are more usable because sometimes you don't have the manual in front of you. > How do fighter pilots do it? Then it must be super-fast, > and no "fumbling" can ever be allowed? Actually no. I am a general aviation pilot (not a fighter pilot, I fly taildragges) but the concept for fighters is HOTAS. Hands On Throttle-And-Stick. Put the switches you need on either the throttle or stick so they can be reached without removing hands from the flight controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTAS Mostly when you do need to manipulate a switch not on either throttle or stick you keep one hand on the control stick, leave the throttle in the friction lock to hold it in place, and use the throttle hand to flip switches. And especially with radios there is always a lot of fumbling. > I remember a flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18 Hornet. It took up > almost the entire keyboard. Because the keyboard is a general purpose interface for human text it doesn't really make a good match to an airplane cockpit. Meaning that it will be more complicated because there is a mapping from one to another. The keys are binary. Most flight controls are analog. And therefore all are a compromise. Note that many modern airliners have a full keyboard in the cockpit. It is useful for entering flight plans and other data specific details. It folds up out of the way when not in active use. But in that role it is dedicated again to the task and not mapped to flight controls as in the games. > It was considered very realistic (at the time) but I take it reality > is even more complex. More and less. When you are centered in the cockpit you can turn your head and look around and everything makes sense around you. But in a game display this is difficult to achieve. Plus the real aircraft includes feeling the movement in your seat which also gives you clues. Perhaps it is more like flying an RC aircraft. > They say programmers often take to flying when they get > rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the accursed Apple world.) When I get rich I will let you know. Until then flying is one of the things keeping me poor. But I wouldn't give up flying for money. It is the other way around. Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-21 22:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:33 ` Bob Proulx @ 2014-07-22 2:44 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-22 21:23 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5833.1405985639.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2014-07-22 2:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > >> I can find F9, (in fact all the function keys) >> without looking. Since they're in groups of 4 it's >> pretty easy. >> >> Somehow, I don't mind moving my hands around even >> though I touch type > > Yeah? :) Then I have the coolest suggestion for you - > why don't you have six keyboard - all in different > colors and with no marks on them - at to vertical > levels - on front, and one on each side? Just one keyboard for 2 computers. (I have a KVM.) I have mechanical keys (blue cherry) and LED lit keys. The office is dark and the letters on the keyboard glow blue. (I like it. Goes well with the XMAS lights I use for low level lighting.) I've got delete entire line (like hitting C-a C-k C-k) bound to the big plus sign on the numeric pad. I don't navigating over there either. I'm not really trying to set any speed records. -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 2:44 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-22 21:23 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes: > I'm not really trying to set any speed records. Yeah, me neither for the sake of records. But I always look for speed and quality: I thought many years ago if I had those two, I'd be hard to put down in all but all situation and walks of life. Also, I don't think they contradict as some people do. I think quantity and quality are the same. The guy who throws the best punches is the guy who throws 1000 punches every day... -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] ` <mailman.5833.1405985639.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-22 22:02 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes: > If anyone does this please post a photo! :-) I got the idea from this music video from the 90's, the German Eurodisco band Sash. Of course, having the keyboards hang in chains are optional... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEsMhxDVVOk > Yes. But at some point the brain can become > overloaded. I have some ham radios that have had > feature creep to the point that they are no longer > possible to be operated without the manual open > beside them. That is bad. Was it left function, > right function, then action button? Or was it push > and hold left function 1s until beep, then action > button? Or right function hold 1s, left function, > then action? I have truly awful "computerized" radio > like that. Others with less features are more usable > because sometimes you don't have the manual in front > of you. Fatigue is of course a big source of such "biomechanical" mistakes. At that point you should probably have a break. At the same time if you have too much material in your brain you might think fumbling and stumbling is OK just so the thing gets done, then the break will be all the more enjoyable as you can feel good and let all that dissappear completely. > Actually no. I am a general aviation pilot (not a > fighter pilot, I fly taildragges) but the concept for > fighters is HOTAS. Hands On Throttle-And-Stick. Put > the switches you need on either the throttle or stick > so they can be reached without removing hands from > the flight controls. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTAS > > Mostly when you do need to manipulate a switch not on > either throttle or stick you keep one hand on the > control stick, leave the throttle in the friction > lock to hold it in place, and use the throttle hand > to flip switches. And especially with radios there > is always a lot of fumbling. So is there something we text-editor users can learn from the pilots? >> I remember a flight simulator for the Mac, F/A-18 >> Hornet. It took up almost the entire keyboard. > > Because the keyboard is a general purpose interface for > human text it doesn't really make a good match to an > airplane cockpit. Meaning that it will be more > complicated because there is a mapping from one to > another. The keys are binary. Most flight controls > are analog. The stick and throttle are, I take it the movements are recoded digitally at some point? What about the data that are read by the pilots? Are they typically analog or spelled out with letters and digits? I think I would prefer analog, more smooth and relaxed. In a text editor though I can't think of anything that could be purposely expressed the "analog" way? > More and less. When you are centered in the cockpit > you can turn your head and look around and everything > makes sense around you. But in a game display this > is difficult to achieve. Plus the real aircraft > includes feeling the movement in your seat which also > gives you clues. Perhaps it is more like flying an > RC aircraft. Interesting. This reminds my of an article I read in the magazine "High Score". There was a Formula 1 game, one of the first games for Windows 95, and for this reason it got some attention. The game was nothing out of the ordinary, I think. But anyway there was a profession race car guy they had testing the game. He said just like you the biggest difference was you get zero information from your body. He said he didn't have an advantage playing the game from being a professional race car driver. In another article in that magazine, but I think in another issue, they did the same with a sailboat simulator. They showed it to some Captain Haddock old fart and asked if you could learn anything from it, and he said absolutely not, you should do that in a real boat. Well of course... problem is, kids don't sit around boats all day as they do computers. If two kids were to learn it I absolutely think the kid with the experience from the simulator would have an advantage - he would know the terminology, how to process the instruments, he would have something to relate (compare) to, and his brain would just have a head start. Also, a simulator can run different scenarios. Don't pilots train in simulators all the time? Why shouldn't aspiring Haddocks do as well? All said and done, nothing beats the real deal... >> They say programmers often take to flying when they >> get rich... (E.g., Woz, speaking of the accursed >> Apple world.) > > When I get rich I will let you know. Until then > flying is one of the things keeping me poor. But I > wouldn't give up flying for money. It is the other > way around. Configuring Emacs all they long and having the shell tools and everything behave exactly as you like, and then do the same to the place you are in while doing it, tweaking everything, I think computing can be physically and even more so mentally enjoyable - and it is a huge difference from a busy office with crap software and stressed out people running all over the place - still, compared to what is instinctively and immediately a joy for almost anyone who ever does it - I'm not an aviator but to some degree I can imagine - I don't think it will ever come to that... Mission Impossible. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5726.1405828965.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen @ 2014-07-20 18:28 ` Emanuel Berg 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Sampath Weerasinghe <swe20144@gmail.com> writes: > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show tabs. You are not the first to experience this. A lot of people got used to tabs from Firefox (or if it was called Mozilla back then) and then it suddenly was a common feature everywhere. (It would be interesting who came up with it first though.) In the Emacs world, I only have tabs in w3m (screenshot: [1]), though in function names, commands, etc. sometimes what I intuitively think of as tabs, they refer to as buffers... > I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by > various things, but when I come back to the seat it > is the tabs that remind me which project I was last > working on. `buffer-menu' would help you with that, as the most recently used buffers are topmost. > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys You can define your own shortcut. For example, I have <caps> bring up the `buffer-menu'. Specifically, I use this defun: (defun buffer-menu-files-only () (interactive) (buffer-menu (not Buffer-menu-files-only)) ) It means, if I hit it again while the buffer menu is shown, I get a new buffer menu, this time not only showing "file buffers" but also buffers of w3m, Gnus, and so on. > and it also takes a a lot of screen real estate. Yes, for this, `buffer-menu' is even worse than `list-buffers' (the one you get with `C-x C-b') because `buffer-menu' uses the whole window. On the other hand, that makes it impossible to use as a poor-man's substitute for tabs, so you just go there to switch buffer. If you really like tabs, neither of these methods are good. You need to find a tab package for Emacs. The `buffer-menu' solution is good for simple switches, but for more ambitious projects, and files that occur regularly, I have a system that is based on keystrokes and prefixes. `C-j e' is my "Emacs prefix", so `C-j e e' is ~/.emacs, `C-j e f' is a file where I keep all everything related to reaching files (f) from Emacs, `C-j g g' is configurations/extentions for Gnus groups, `C-j t' is ~/todo.txt, and so on. For a programming project, I employ the same system, but with different prefixes and/or keys, of course. Every single file I setup this way. It is time consuming in the early phase but then it is so fast it is not a loss of time, on the contrary. But the main advantage isn't speed, but workflow. When you have achieved a high degree of focus then it really sucks to jump back and forth between files writing long paths or searching for them in nested files trees. With is system, I'm one keystroke away from any other file, wherever I am in Emacs. [2] Earlier, I used registers, like this: (set-register ?l (cons 'file "/sudo::/etc/rc.local")) And then I setup a shortcut to `jump-to-register' (`C-j' actually, short, and doesn't require you to move you hands from typing positions). That was a good idea but there aren't enough registers, which is why I thought of the prefix solution. (The prefix way is also mnemonic/intuitive as it can be made to mirror the tree structure of a filesystem, so you get more familiar/comfortable with that just by jumping between files.) There are also bookmarks, and many, many other attempts to solve this file problem, which a very important problem for programmers and all computer people. We all think the approach of "small, modular files, use the filesystem to express purpose and association as well as to encapsulate" is the best. But do that all day long, and moving between all those soon-to-be zillion files is a real pest! So to jump between them in the close-to-speed-of-thought must be solved somehow, otherwise all that overhead typing paths and navigating the filesystem will just make for crappy workflow, frustration and loss of focus, which is (as said) much more important than the time loss, which is important in itself. So the Emacs "pros" should really put their minds to this problem even more as it is an annoyance to many veterans as well as an obstacle to many newcomers. [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/dumps/w3m-tabs.png [2] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/global-keys.el -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5726.1405828965.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-20 18:28 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2015-11-03 14:21 ` Dan Espen ` (6 more replies) 2 siblings, 7 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: swe20144 @ 2015-11-03 14:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, I've finally gotten used to C-x b Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people. How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about yet? I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way) If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like to see. Basically C-x b to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance? (the repo hasn't been updated since 2012) Sam On Saturday, July 19, 2014 at 6:47:47 PM UTC-7, Sampath Weerasinghe wrote: > Hi, > > I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. > > I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show > tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, > but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that > remind me which project I was last working on. > > I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also > takes a a lot of screen real estate. > > I'm wondering how others overcame this. > > -Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 @ 2015-11-03 14:21 ` Dan Espen 2015-11-03 15:22 ` Yuri Khan ` (5 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Dan Espen @ 2015-11-03 14:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs swe20144@gmail.com writes: > It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, > I've finally gotten used to C-x b > Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. > > I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse > to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people. > How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about > yet? > > I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way) > > If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like > to see. > Basically > C-x b to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion > Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions > > Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance? > (the repo hasn't been updated since 2012) Not clear to me what your question is. But if you like the default buffer list, I think you'll like electric-buffer-list more: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/ElectricBufferList -- Dan Espen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2015-11-03 14:21 ` Dan Espen @ 2015-11-03 15:22 ` Yuri Khan 2015-11-03 15:46 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 2015-11-03 15:37 ` Filipp Gunbin ` (4 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Yuri Khan @ 2015-11-03 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sampath Weerasinghe; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:07 PM, <swe20144@gmail.com> wrote: > It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, > I've finally gotten used to C-x b > Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. […] > Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about > yet? If you are not particularly attached to Chrome, then maybe look at Conkeror (not to be confused with Konqueror). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 15:22 ` Yuri Khan @ 2015-11-03 15:46 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 2015-11-03 17:31 ` Michael Heerdegen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Dirk-Jan C. Binnema @ 2015-11-03 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org On Tuesday Nov 03 2015, Yuri Khan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 8:07 PM, <swe20144@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, >> I've finally gotten used to C-x b >> Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. > […] >> Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about >> yet? > > If you are not particularly attached to Chrome, then maybe look at > Conkeror (not to be confused with Konqueror). Conkeror is nice, but can be a bit difficult to combine with other Firefox extensions. However, there is an extension "Keysnail" for Firefox which gives you a regular Firefox with some emacs-like behaviors added to that (including the "C-x b" binding). Keysnail has its own plugins, and e.g. the "HoK" one is quite nice, giving you on-screen shortcuts for access links through your keyboard, just like Conkeror (and ace-jump-mode, eno etc. in emacs) do. https://github.com/mooz/keysnail/wiki Cheers, Dirk. -- Dirk-Jan C. Binnema Helsinki, Finland e:djcb@djcbsoftware.nl w:www.djcbsoftware.nl pgp: D09C E664 897D 7D39 5047 A178 E96A C7A1 017D DA3C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 15:46 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema @ 2015-11-03 17:31 ` Michael Heerdegen 2015-11-03 17:47 ` Charles Philip Chan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Michael Heerdegen @ 2015-11-03 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs "Dirk-Jan C. Binnema" <djcb@djcbsoftware.nl> writes: > However, there is an extension "Keysnail" for Firefox which gives you a > regular Firefox with some emacs-like behaviors added to that (including > the "C-x b" binding). +1 for Keysnail, I'm a user too. But I don't have such a command here. What command is bound to C-x b in your setup? Thanks, Michael. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 17:31 ` Michael Heerdegen @ 2015-11-03 17:47 ` Charles Philip Chan 2015-11-03 21:24 ` Michael Heerdegen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Charles Philip Chan @ 2015-11-03 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 349 bytes --] Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes: > +1 for Keysnail, I'm a user too. But I don't have such a command > here. What command is bound to C-x b in your setup? You need the "Tanything" plugin for Keysnail. The default keybinding is "a". Charles -- "Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX." (By Stephan Zielinski) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 180 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 17:47 ` Charles Philip Chan @ 2015-11-03 21:24 ` Michael Heerdegen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Michael Heerdegen @ 2015-11-03 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Charles Philip Chan <cpchan@bell.net> writes: > You need the "Tanything" plugin for Keysnail. The default keybinding > is "a". Great, thanks. For the record: use this to make it work globally with C-x b: key.setGlobalKey(['C-x', 'b'], function (ev, arg) { ext.exec("tanything", arg); }, "View all tabs", true); Regards, Michael. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2015-11-03 14:21 ` Dan Espen 2015-11-03 15:22 ` Yuri Khan @ 2015-11-03 15:37 ` Filipp Gunbin 2015-11-03 15:53 ` Aziz Yemloul ` (3 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Filipp Gunbin @ 2015-11-03 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: swe20144; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs On 03/11/2015 06:07 -0800, swe20144@gmail.com wrote: > It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, > I've finally gotten used to C-x b When I started using Emacs I didn't know that I can use isearch in minibuffer. When I found that possibility, things became simpler. I frequently think that things like that probably should be mentioned in manual / tutorial somewhere near the beginning... > Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. > > I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse > to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people. > How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about > yet? Maybe there's a chance to change your workflow? I wonder what may require more than 5 tabs at the same moment. I remember trying Conkeror browser (http://conkeror.org) and Firefox plugins for Emacs keys, it seemed unnatural for me. So I switched to emacs-w3m for all text pages (manuals, references - work materials mostly). I even switched off tabs in emacs-w3m for the browser "windows" to act like normal Emacs buffers, which they are (but I use `w3m-select-buffer' a lot). Filipp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-03 15:37 ` Filipp Gunbin @ 2015-11-03 15:53 ` Aziz Yemloul 2015-11-03 15:56 ` Charles Philip Chan ` (2 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Aziz Yemloul @ 2015-11-03 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: swe20144; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs swe20144@gmail.com writes: > It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, > I've finally gotten used to C-x b > Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. Conkeror is awesome, it's my default web browser. M-n and M-p to go to next and previous tab like i do in tabbar-mode in emacs and w3m tabs inside emacs. it have the C-x b key-binding to switch to desired tab, C-x f to find a new url in new buffer. hope you'll try it ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-03 15:53 ` Aziz Yemloul @ 2015-11-03 15:56 ` Charles Philip Chan 2015-11-03 20:07 ` Bob Proulx 2015-11-03 23:48 ` Kendall Shaw 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Charles Philip Chan @ 2015-11-03 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --] swe20144@gmail.com writes: > I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one > attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way) > > If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking > Emacsome to add the features I like to see. Basically C-x b to switch > buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion Inside it, C-n and C-p to > browse the suggestions Don't know about Chrome, but for Firefox, one can configure keysnail: https://github.com/mooz/keysnail/wiki to do this. Charles -- "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree, Virginia Power) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 180 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-03 15:56 ` Charles Philip Chan @ 2015-11-03 20:07 ` Bob Proulx 2015-11-03 23:48 ` Kendall Shaw 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Bob Proulx @ 2015-11-03 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: swe20144; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs swe20144@gmail.com wrote: > ... Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a > lot of time on: my web browser. > > I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse > to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people. > How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about > yet? The best Chrome/Chromium plugin for me is the Vimium plugin. It is designed to bring vim keys to the web browser. But it is configurable. And some Emacs keys have always been available in vi too and are therefore available immediately in Chromium with Vimium. Check it out as you might like it. Unfortunately Chrome's architecture means that plugins cannot work outside of "external" pages. Therefore nothing can be perfect as a plugin. But it is better than not having it there. Also I customize my X Window System environment and set: gtk-key-theme-name = "Emacs" With that in my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 file everything that uses GTK widgets will use Emacs key bindings by default. That means C-l to get to the URL location bar and then C-b, C-f, and so forth all work as in Emacs in Firefox, Chrome, other. "The way it should be." :-) Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2015-11-03 20:07 ` Bob Proulx @ 2015-11-03 23:48 ` Kendall Shaw 6 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Kendall Shaw @ 2015-11-03 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Doubly different than what you asked for, but vimperator in the "a script has become unresponsive" browser, is what I use. g0 goes to first tab. g$ goes to last. t creates a new tab. Kendall On 11/03/2015 06:07 AM, swe20144@gmail.com wrote: > > It's been almost 1.5 years, After trying various alternatives like tabbar mode, > I've finally gotten used to C-x b > Surprisingly, I like it. Now I'm trying to bring this to the other application I spend a lot of time on: my web browser. > > I usually have about 20 web browser tabs open at any given time, and using the mouse > to go to a specific tab just breaks my flow. I'm sure it's the same for other people. > How do you guys overcome this? Is there a chrome extension I haven't learnt about > yet? > > I found two extensions Emacsome and ChromEmacs, with the first one attempting to do what I want (but not going all the way) > > If there's none out there, I guess I will just be hacking/forking Emacsome to add the features I like > to see. > Basically > C-x b to switch buffers with helm/ido like autocompletion > Inside it, C-n and C-p to browse the suggestions > > Is the author of Emacsome in here by any chance? > (the repo hasn't been updated since 2012) > > Sam > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, July 19, 2014 at 6:47:47 PM UTC-7, Sampath Weerasinghe wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I'm slowly migrating from notepad++ to emacs. >> >> I feel a bit lost because emacs doesn't show >> tabs. I work on multiple projects, I get distracted by various things, >> but when I come back to the seat it is the tabs that >> remind me which project I was last working on. >> >> I know C-x C-b pops it up, but involves multiple keys and it also >> takes a a lot of screen real estate. >> >> I'm wondering how others overcame this. >> >> -Sam > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5835.1405987077.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-22 21:18 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-22 22:32 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes: > There's much more reuse than you think. The normal > Emacs buffer list, the one tied to C-x C-b is > list-buffers'. I was thinking from the user's perspective. For example, I did some configuration to the Buffer menu [1] - perhaps those exact things are already in some of the other alternatives, that I didn't know of? From the developer's perspective, I would think that they know what alternatives are already there. Nonetheless, code that does (more or less) the same and looks the same doesn't have to be a case of reuse. It is possible it was just written the same, twice! Also, even if it is reused, it can be a slim line between (proper) reuse for some slightly different purpose and (improper) reuse which is actually duplication/redundancy. I didn't study the code like you did, so I'm not saying what is the case here - it may be, it isn't in any way as I describe it. On the other hand, the only thing that seem to differ (that has been mentioned so far) are the keys and the way the windows behave. Isn't that typically something that should be configurable, not reasons to fork? As for the selection feature that Dan mentioned, that seems like something that is generalizable and would benefit all solutions in this category. [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/dumps/buffer_menu.png http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/buffer-menu.el -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 21:18 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 22:32 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-22 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes: ... > I was thinking from the user's perspective. For > example, I did some configuration to the > Buffer menu [1] - perhaps those exact things are already > in some of the other alternatives, that I didn't know > of? Yes, ibuffer has some similar features to the ones you've configured into buffer-menu. > I didn't study the code like you did, so I'm not saying > what is the case here - it may be, it isn't in any way > as I describe it. As I said, three of the buffer menus mentioned are really the same: buffer-menu, buffer-menu-other-window and list-buffers. One, electric-buffer-list is a keymap variant that depends on the other. That's not really much repetition. Personally, I like that they've kept the old ones around because I'm used to them, as I expect a lot of users are. That said, ibuffer is separate. In other areas of Emacs this problem is worse. For example there are four code-folding systems and they're all separate (a simple one in simple.el, hide-show-mode, outline-minor-mode and allout-mode). I don't like the profliteration of different browsers and email systems either. I'm not going to complain too much though, because I'm not doing anything about it. In lots of these cases it happene because the features started off as independently developed libraries and were added into Emacs later. > On the other hand, the only thing that seem to differ > (that has been mentioned so far) are the keys and the > way the windows behave. Isn't that typically something > that should be configurable, not reasons to fork? Sometimes having a set of different functions that do things slightly differently is the way that Emacs provides for customization. To give another example, C-j will make a newline and indent the next line. There's a function called reindent-then-newline-and-indent which can be used instead by remapping it to C-j. > [1] http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/dumps/buffer_menu.png > http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/buffer-menu.el I like that, I think using different colours is useful. BR, Robert Thorpe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5882.1406068755.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-22 23:57 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-23 1:25 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 1 reply; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-22 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes: > As I said, three of the buffer menus mentioned are > really the same: buffer-menu, > buffer-menu-other-window and list-buffers. One, > electric-buffer-list is a keymap variant that depends > on the other. That's not really much repetition. Again, I didn't examine the code so this is more a discussion of principles. I'm happy people are active with Emacs but from the little we have heard of the differences between those tools, and the nature of those tools (the task they set out to solve), it is my impression this is optimally something that should be kept at configuration-basis within a single tool. > Personally, I like that they've kept the old ones > around because I'm used to them, as I expect a lot of > users are. Of course, the old one, whichever that is, should be kept, only extended, not forked, preferably. If it were extended too much for oldtimers, it could be extended even more, with an --oldtimer option so it would look just the same, the upstart stuff brought out of action and made invisible. > That said, ibuffer is separate. In other areas of > Emacs this problem is worse. For example there are > four code-folding systems and they're all separate (a > simple one in simple.el, hide-show-mode, > outline-minor-mode and allout-mode). Probably unavoidable for a project of this scale, but in the case of the buffer lists, it seems like a case where it could have been avoided, and probably more easily than many other cases that aren't as straightforward in purpose and presentation... > I don't like the profliteration of different browsers > and email systems either. Here, I'm ambivalent. Personally I would never want to do such a project because it would take years and it would be very uncertain if it would ever reach a level where people would use it. For all that time, it would be almost embarrassing to use/develop it as there would be so many better alternatives around. Still, in but a few of all those projects, a level of some humpty-dumpty parity with the other such software is reached. In the Linux world for example Emacs and vim, tmux and screen, zsh and bash, Firefox and Opera, Perl and Python... At that point I say it's healthy to have such competition. So in the few cases when you end up with a solid piece of software, I don't mind there are other such solid pieces at all. Here, it is rather that those cases are very few and it is a waste of time for all that don't get that and are totally unrealistic in their efforts. But to make a variant of the buffer list is as we have seen not unrealistic, so for that situation, the question is rather: were do I put my efforts do the best use? Here, I don't think having many alternatives are healthy competition, it is just fragmentation. (But it is not a cardinal sin. I'm happy whenever people are active.) > I'm not going to complain too much though, because > I'm not doing anything about it. In lots of these > cases it happene because the features started off as > independently developed libraries and were added into > Emacs later. Yes, as long as it is great stuff I don't mind anything being added. > Sometimes having a set of different functions that do > things slightly differently is the way that Emacs > provides for customization. To give another example, > C-j will make a newline and indent the next line. > There's a function called > reindent-then-newline-and-indent which can be used > instead by remapping it to C-j. ...what? > I like that, I think using different colours is > useful. Yes, that's something I miss from the default Emacs, from dired not the least. It should be put to extensive use but not as amateur configuration. Gnus also looked very boring at first but was (contrary to dired) configurable as there are so many gnus- and message- faces. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
* Re: Feeling lost without tabs 2014-07-22 23:57 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-23 1:25 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-23 1:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes: ... >> Sometimes having a set of different functions that do >> things slightly differently is the way that Emacs >> provides for customization. To give another example, >> C-j will make a newline and indent the next line. >> There's a function called >> reindent-then-newline-and-indent which can be used >> instead by remapping it to C-j. > > ...what? Like I said, Emacs sometimes provides several similar functions as a way to provide users with options. Often doing that is simpler than using variables. The function "reindent-then-newline-and-indent" indents the current line, inserts an newline then indents the next line. Nobody is going to run that function using M-x, it's there so people can map it to a key, normally replacing a default function (such as to C-j or RET). That's why buffer-menu and buffer-menu-other-window are present too. BR, Robert Thorpe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
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* Re: Feeling lost without tabs [not found] <mailman.5886.1406078772.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-23 2:29 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 71+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-23 2:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Robert Thorpe <rt@robertthorpeconsulting.com> writes: > Like I said, Emacs sometimes provides several similar > functions as a way to provide users with options. > Often doing that is simpler than using variables. > The function "reindent-then-newline-and-indent" > indents the current line, inserts an newline then > indents the next line. Nobody is going to run that > function using M-x, it's there so people can map it > to a key, normally replacing a default function (such > as to C-j or RET). That's why buffer-menu and > buffer-menu-other-window are present too. You mean something like this: (defun do-something-big-or-small (big) ... Configuration-as-a-function: (defun do-something-big () (interactive) (do-something-big-or-small t) ) (defun do-something-small () (interactive) (do-something-big-or-small nil) ) That's OK, of course... (?) -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 71+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-11-03 23:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 71+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-07-20 1:47 Feeling lost without tabs Sampath Weerasinghe 2014-07-20 4:08 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 4:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-20 5:12 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 6:09 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-20 16:48 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-21 14:15 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-22 3:51 ` Yuri Khan [not found] ` <mailman.5771.1405874938.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 18:40 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 3:56 ` Yuri Khan 2014-07-20 7:19 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5741.1405840784.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 18:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 23:48 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 0:29 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 1:08 ` Charles Philip Chan 2014-07-21 2:25 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 16:25 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-22 0:57 ` Robert Thorpe [not found] ` <mailman.5823.1405959942.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 18:04 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 21:05 ` Bob Proulx [not found] ` <mailman.5831.1405976742.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 21:22 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:57 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-07-22 2:33 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-22 21:28 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 21:47 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 21:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 21:40 ` have new Gnus message not always fullscreened (was: [gnu.emacs.help] Re: Feeling lost without tabs) Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 5:22 ` Feeling lost without tabs Tak Kunihiro [not found] ` <mailman.5729.1405830475.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-22 15:14 ` Javier 2014-07-22 15:32 ` Ken Goldman 2014-07-22 21:01 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-23 0:57 ` Javier 2014-07-23 2:21 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5871.1406043177.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-22 21:03 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <<lqlv3t$hog$1@speranza.aioe.org> 2014-07-22 17:03 ` Drew Adams 2014-07-20 6:25 ` Filipp Gunbin 2014-07-20 9:20 ` Kevin Le Gouguec 2014-07-20 17:36 ` Drew Adams 2014-07-20 18:02 ` Robert Thorpe 2014-08-16 21:13 ` Marcin Borkowski [not found] <mailman.5726.1405828965.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 14:19 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-20 18:11 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-20 18:34 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5777.1405879906.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 21:44 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 17:02 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-20 23:52 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-21 22:54 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 23:33 ` Bob Proulx 2014-07-22 2:44 ` Dan Espen 2014-07-22 21:23 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5833.1405985639.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-22 22:02 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 18:28 ` Emanuel Berg 2015-11-03 14:07 ` swe20144 2015-11-03 14:21 ` Dan Espen 2015-11-03 15:22 ` Yuri Khan 2015-11-03 15:46 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema 2015-11-03 17:31 ` Michael Heerdegen 2015-11-03 17:47 ` Charles Philip Chan 2015-11-03 21:24 ` Michael Heerdegen 2015-11-03 15:37 ` Filipp Gunbin 2015-11-03 15:53 ` Aziz Yemloul 2015-11-03 15:56 ` Charles Philip Chan 2015-11-03 20:07 ` Bob Proulx 2015-11-03 23:48 ` Kendall Shaw [not found] <mailman.5835.1405987077.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-22 21:18 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-22 22:32 ` Robert Thorpe [not found] <mailman.5882.1406068755.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-22 23:57 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-23 1:25 ` Robert Thorpe [not found] <mailman.5886.1406078772.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-23 2:29 ` Emanuel Berg
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