From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: lisa-asket@perso.be Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 18:36:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16684"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, moasenwood@zoho.eu To: "Jean Louis" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 28 18:38:19 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lxuH5-000491-5P for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 18:38:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48544 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lxuH4-00012q-1F for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 12:38:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57142) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lxuGG-00010w-B2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 12:37:28 -0400 Original-Received: from ip-8.mailobj.net ([213.182.54.8]:56358 helo=msg-3.mailo.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lxuG7-0002jW-Pi for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 12:37:28 -0400 Original-Received: by www-8.mailo.com with http webmail; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 18:36:28 +0200 (CEST) X-EA-Auth: HGwjea+WmQ0IS/KZx9zAesABQP10JQtFvwKqVDKLhoFeopU1Ya3kXgidkKavegU2SfRpCh92gPvMYZODjw+1zQ== X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: COMS/EA21.01/r20210601 In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=213.182.54.8; envelope-from=lisa-asket@perso.be; helo=msg-3.mailo.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:131339 Archived-At: From: Jean Louis To: lisa-asket@perso.be Subject: Re: Exporting form emacs texinfo-mode to dvi, pdf, and html Date: 28/06/2021 16:02:13 Europe/Paris Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0moasenwood@zoho.eu * lisa-asket@perso.be [2021-06-28 12:44]: > In reality there is no valid reason not to use elisp. No valid reason NOT to use Emacs Lisp. Well, there are many valid reasons for variety of people one important one would be the familiarity to a programming language. No matter what is technical advantage the familiarity is number one factor for people to use this or that programming language. A Perl programmer is familiar with its tools and would not like to switch to Emacs Lisp. Majority of people don't use Emacs Lisp for nothing else but improving the Emacs as editor. Though it is full programming language that can do so much. Yesterday I was writing the double opt-in in Emacs Lisp that will serve as CGI program on websites. Parameters for script may be configured within Emacs. Great. > Makefiles are just an obsession for some developers. Makefiles solve complex problems. There are various Make related solutions in free software. You need not use any of them and you may cherry-pick some of them. That it is obsession I would not say, unless you have made a large interview with developers and identified their groups and backgrounds. Statement is too general. Opinion is somehow shallow.=20 I don't have complex problems. > just as databases are for others. Database as obsession? The database helps me NOT to think about the database, structures, where is what piece of information. When I am hard coding or writing information in some data loaded into Emacs Lisp then I have to think of it, which list did I make, which key, value, alist, and so on. Pieces of information are not related to each other. Database integrates all pieces of information and thus helps minimize programming efforts down to almot 1% of what otherwise would be needed. Many times I just need a small list, text based. This is my Org agenda alternative in just few lines: (defun hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda () (interactive) (hyperscope-voice 44) ;;(rcd-speak "Hyperscope agenda") (let ((sql "SELECT DISTINCT timestamps_hlinks, timestamptypes_name, to_char(timestamps_timestamp::date, 'Day'), timestamps_timestamp::date, hyobjects_name, actionstatuses_name FROM hyobjects, timestamps, timestamptypes, actionstatuses WHERE hyobjects_id =3D timestamps_hlinks AND timestamptypes_id =3D timestamps_timestamptypes AND timestamptypes_inagenda IS TRUE AND actionstatuses_id =3D hyobjects_actionstatuses AND actionstatuses_actionstatustypes !=3D 3 ORDER BY timestamps_timestamp DESC") (highlights (append '("ACTION") (hyperscope-timestamp-list t))) (buffer-name "Hyperscope Agenda")) (kill-matching-buffers buffer-name t t) (rcd-db-sql-report buffer-name sql [("ID" 5 t) ("Type" 10 t) ("Day" 9 t) (= "Timestamp" 10 t) ("Hyperdocument" 55) ("Action" 10 t)] "hyobjects" '("Time= stamp" . t) 'hyperscope-hyperdocuments-agenda highlights))) Of course there are more lines behind it, but not more than maybe 4-5 times that much, few lines for database table definition and `rcd-db-sql-report', key bindings, etc. that's about it. Obsession... * Overview of noun obsession The noun obsession has 2 senses (no senses from tagged texts) 1. compulsion, obsession -- (an irrational motive for performing trivial o= r repetitive actions, even against your will; "her compulsion to wash her h= ands repeatedly") 2. obsession, fixation -- (an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with = something or someone) Makefiles - are necessity, I cannot see obsession. It is part of software history and today there are different build tools. People use different. When something is irrational I would say it is obsession. For that reason I gave up from Org mode. As the deeper one goes one can find plethora of irrational love to a tool that does not make it right not closely right as compared to some other tools made for the similar purpose. Here I refer to tasks handling, planning, rather then writing the outline. Org mode is a good outline, bad task planner application. Surely I have recognized that I have been introduced to it due to hype around it, back in 2016, but somewhere in 2019, it was unbearable and I have switched in 2020 to complete different system. The Org mode would like to be a database, but it is not and will never be. The amount of coding given to Org mode is great number lines that are trying to replace otherwise in other software parts some very common issues. One example could be the GDBM, would Emacs have module or bindings to GDBM database it would solve so many problems that Org mode is trying to solve. In general things could get so much faster, but we don't have that. I have asked Sergey maintainer of GDBM to include it at least as module. Databases don't fall into obsession category (except for some people), they are rather practical minimization of programming efforts. Take for example the Emacs configuration file, it could be stored in such built-in database, and at all times also edited as plain text. The GDBM is a key value database, it would be trivial to make a special mode to edit the database directly and visually straight from editor. My package for hash editing is an example. Edit hash visually, send it to other people, exchange.=20 Emacs Lisp package `rcd-hash-edit.el` https://hyperscope.link/3/7/6/6/1/Emacs-Lisp-package-rcd-hash-edit-37661.h= tml There are some packages that promise "persistent" data structures, persistent scratch buffer, persistent variables, and so on. By having database hooks such issues are easily solved. Database is for example handling complex structures of people's records. It would be oversimplified if I would say it is "address book" as it is not. Complex relations between people from one to each other, relatives, friends, business partners, introducers, their related SMS messages, emails, faxes, letters, directories, files, images, offers, quotations, invoices, you name it. It lessens or minimizes programming times. Trying to implement it in Emacs is not a scalable solution. GNU Hyperbole address book or BBDB or Org contacts, nothing nearly comes close to what database offers to advance user. I wonder what Edgar Hoover used. But if it is obsession? I don't think so. It is practical tool. Emacs can be obsession, but I am not using it as because of obsession but because it is useful, practical. People write in Emacs. Writing is one of most important intellectual activities. It influences society. Majority of Emacs users are not obsessed. They are enthusiasts. Enthusiasm is lively interest in something. When it comes to handling of mission critical real time information maybe the attempt to do it with Emacs Lisp could be considered obsession as maybe there are other programming languages more suitable for different types of tasks. I am very pragmatic.=C2=A0 Jeff Bezos thinks going to mars is a mission cr= itical=20 problem.=C2=A0 I pity him. --=20 Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/