icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without first calling

(icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).



Could this be a bug?

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

arvid-harnack wrote:

> Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
> first calling
>
> (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode
> 1).

Hm, not sure about the policy on that (or if there is one),
but as a not I don't have `icomplete-vertical-mode' even after
evaluating (icomplete-mode 1) ... it also doesn't seem to do
anything, just echoes "t".

GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
3.24.5, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2020-10-23

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Looked at the code and it is provided in GNU Emacs 28.0.50

From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 17/06/2021 01:02:05 Europe/Paris

arvid-harnack wrote:

> Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
> first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).

Hm, not sure about the policy on that (or if there is one),
but as a not I don't have `icomplete-vertical-mode' even after
evaluating (icomplete-mode 1) ... it also doesn't seem to do
anything, just echoes "t".

GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
3.24.5, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2020-10-23

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Ergus]

>> Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
>> first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).

Yes, this is intended. icomplete-vertical-mode is a submode of icomplete.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 18/06/2021 13:54:37 Europe/Paris
>Cc: moasenwood@zoho.eu;
  >  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org


>> Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
>> first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).

>Yes, this is intended. icomplete-vertical-mode is a submode of icomplete.



It may be intentional, but I do net see the benefit for it to function that way.

Users either want icomplete-horizontal or icomplete-vertical.



Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough



Not like this



;; use icomplete-vertical

(icomplete-mode 1)

(icomplete-vertical-mode 1)



It feels very surprising to users and non-intuitive.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

> It may be intentional, but I do net see the benefit for it to function that way.

> Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough

That is right, it should work by calling one or the other and not by
calling the unwanted one before the wanted one for wanted one to
function. 

Haven thanks I am not using it.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Developers need to get some sense in their head, because it is highly lacking.


From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 18/06/2021 20:26:44 Europe/Paris
Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu

> It may be intentional, but I do net see the benefit for it to function that way.

> Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough

That is right, it should work by calling one or the other and not by
calling the unwanted one before the wanted one for wanted one to
function. 

Haven thanks I am not using it.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-18 21:37]:
> Developers need to get some sense in their head, because it is
> highly lacking.

Recommended reading for you:

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

It was a technical argument.  More focus on design rather than just implementation.

For all contributors to make a conscious effort to think about the user.



From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 18/06/2021 20:45:36 Europe/Paris
Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-18 21:37]:
> Developers need to get some sense in their head, because it is
> highly lacking.

Recommended reading for you:

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 206 bytes --]

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 09:01:04PM +0200, arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:
> It was a technical argument.  More focus on design rather than just implementation.

It was an ad hominem argument.

-- t

[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-18 22:01]:
> It was a technical argument.  More focus on design rather than just implementation.
> 
> For all contributors to make a conscious effort to think about the
> user.

I understand, though... you are free to report a bug and participate
in the process as that IS useful. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Obviously someone did it that way.   So in your opinion the comment was not about

logic or reason ?  How should it work then?  Many would criticise it actually.



When you think about the user first, you reap the benefits.  I used to fume at criticism 

when I was a junior programmer decades ago.  Not today.  Just swallow it as one is supposed

to do at work doing serious jobs.


From: tomas@tuxteam.de
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 18/06/2021 21:07:18 Europe/Paris

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 09:01:04PM +0200, arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:
> It was a technical argument.  More focus on design rather than just implementation.

It was an ad hominem argument.

-- t

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Philip Kaludercic]

arvid-harnack@lavache.com writes:

>>From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
>>To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>>Date: 18/06/2021 13:54:37 Europe/Paris
>>Cc: moasenwood@zoho.eu;
>   >  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>
>
>>> Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
>>> first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).
>
>>Yes, this is intended. icomplete-vertical-mode is a submode of icomplete.
>
>
>
> It may be intentional, but I do net see the benefit for it to function that way.
>
> Users either want icomplete-horizontal or icomplete-vertical.
>
>
>
> Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough

I second this. Either icomplete-vertical-mode is a regular user option
or icomplete-vertical-mode should enable icomplete-mode too (like fido).

>
>
> Not like this
>
>
>
> ;; use icomplete-vertical
>
> (icomplete-mode 1)
>
> (icomplete-vertical-mode 1)
>
>
>
> It feels very surprising to users and non-intuitive.
>
>
>

-- 
	Philip K.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Philip Kaludercic]

arvid-harnack@lavache.com writes:

> Obviously someone did it that way.   So in your opinion the comment was not about

The reason was not malice or stupidity, just a preference on the
question of user options/variables vs minor modes.

-- 
	Philip K.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
>To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 18/06/2021 23:24:33 Europe/Paris
>Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de;
>   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

>arvid-harnack@lavache.com writes:

>> Obviously someone did it that way.   So in your opinion the comment was not about



>The reason was not malice or stupidity, just a preference on the
>question of user options/variables vs minor modes.



Emacs is already complicated as it is.  Straightforward calls would help.  

I like the vertical form and it is good that it was implemented.  But it makes

it hard for me to attract my group to appreciate the design and capabilities.



The important thing is that people see the motivation for a change in how users

can enable vertical icomplete.



-- 
Philip K.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Am starting to have enough of free software.  After sending a
bug-report, I got a response that the method of enabling
icomplete-vertical-mode is good as it is, followed by getting the
bug-report closed.

Am beginning to think that the reason is actually malice mixed
with a good dose of stupidity.  Because as long as the
implementation is capable of enabling the mode, things are great.
Very superficial way at dealing with bug-reports.

It could also be that the bug-report subject was not good enough
for Lars to understand my intention.  Could people who agree with
the change help me out on this?

Sincerely


--------

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: bug#49075: (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 15:34:58 Europe/Paris
Cc: 49075@debbugs.gnu.org

arvid-harnack@lavache.com writes:

> Recently, icomplete-vertical-mode was added. But calling
> (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) does not enable vertical completion,
> unless one has called (icomplete-mode 1) first.

I think that works as designed -- as the doc string says:

"Toggle vertical candidate display in `icomplete-mode' or `fido-mode'."

So the mode can't just switch on icomplete-mode by itself, because it
works two different modes.

Closing.

(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

--------

From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 18/06/2021 23:24:33 Europe/Paris
Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

> > arvid-harnack@lavache.com writes:

> > Obviously someone did it that way.  So in your opinion the
> > comment was not about

The reason was not malice or stupidity, just a preference on the
question of user options/variables vs minor modes.

Philip K.

--------

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

Without entering into your drama:

Emacs is the advanced, extensible, customizable, self-documenting
editor.

Thus if you want icomplete vertical mode just make your own command:

(defun my-icomplete ()
  (interactive)
  (icomplete-mode 1)
  (icomplete-vertical-mode 1))

Then: M-x my-icomplete

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-06-18 at 18:52:58 +0200,
arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

> Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough
> 
> 
> 
> Not like this
> 
> 
> 
> ;; use icomplete-vertical
> 
> (icomplete-mode 1)
> 
> (icomplete-vertical-mode 1)

On 2021-06-19 at 18:31:45 +0200,
arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

> It could also be that the bug-report subject was not good enough
> for Lars to understand my intention.  Could people who agree with
> the change help me out on this?

Try this (untested) in one of your startup files:

    (defadvice icomplete-vertical-mode
        (before activate-icomplete-before-icomplete-vertical activate)
      "activate icomplete-mode before activating icomplete-vertical-mode"
      (icomplete-mode 1))

According to https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/, Emacs is "[a]n
extensible, customizable, self-documenting display editor"; if you don't
like some given behavior, then you can very likely modify that behavior.

Arguably, it did take quite some effort to discover that you need both
function calls.  Perhaps you could submit a patch to that bug report to
update icomplete-vertical-mode's documentation instead of changing
emacs's behavior for everyone.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

I get it.  It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers decide not to give a care about users. 

Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck. 



How can people get into emacs if they have to do all these shitty hacks to turn things on or off.

One day there will be so much shit that people with trash it rather than trying to figure out what

the fuck is going on with the code.  Texinfo has got a similar problem.  It has became too

difficult and complicated to think of delving in the code.


From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 18:43:59 Europe/Paris
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

Without entering into your drama:

Emacs is the advanced, extensible, customizable, self-documenting
editor.

Thus if you want icomplete vertical mode just make your own command:

(defun my-icomplete ()
(interactive)
(icomplete-mode 1)
(icomplete-vertical-mode 1))

Then: M-x my-icomplete

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-19 20:09]:
> I get it.  It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers decide not to give a care about users. 
> 
> Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck. 

Solution is there:

M-x doctor


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Removing guesswork and confusion should be a priority. We should not have to read excessively long

descriptions or have to guess or interpret the strange way something functions.



You remember the hurd,  emacs is quite similar.  One adds and adds to it without facilitating 

the job of using it.



Instead developers are ranting on about copyright assignment, fsf, rms, women, and bullshit like that.



From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 19:04:00 Europe/Paris

On 2021-06-18 at 18:52:58 +0200,
arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

> Calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) should be enough
> 
> 
> 
> Not like this
> 
> 
> 
> ;; use icomplete-vertical
> 
> (icomplete-mode 1)
> 
> (icomplete-vertical-mode 1)

On 2021-06-19 at 18:31:45 +0200,
arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

> It could also be that the bug-report subject was not good enough
> for Lars to understand my intention.  Could people who agree with
> the change help me out on this?

Try this (untested) in one of your startup files:

(defadvice icomplete-vertical-mode
(before activate-icomplete-before-icomplete-vertical activate)
"activate icomplete-mode before activating icomplete-vertical-mode"
(icomplete-mode 1))

According to https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/, Emacs is "[a]n
extensible, customizable, self-documenting display editor"; if you don't
like some given behavior, then you can very likely modify that behavior.

Arguably, it did take quite some effort to discover that you need both
function calls. Perhaps you could submit a patch to that bug report to
update icomplete-vertical-mode's documentation instead of changing
emacs's behavior for everyone.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

"M-x doctor" sounds much like the church, you complain to an invisible man

who does not exist.



I thought there were problems but not this bad.  Do you use it a lot?





From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 19:22:12 Europe/Paris
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-19 20:09]:
> I get it.  It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers decide not to give a care about users. 
> 
> Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck. 

Solution is there:

M-x doctor


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

> Solution is there:

> M-x doctor



Lars wrote it ?




From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 19:22:12 Europe/Paris
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-19 20:09]:
> I get it.  It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers decide not to give a care about users. 
> 
> Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck. 

Solution is there:

M-x doctor


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 19:28:18 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Instead developers are ranting on about copyright assignment, fsf, rms, women, and bullshit like that.

Instead of worrying what are the developers ranting about, how about
turning your attention to your own rants?  They have no end, it seems.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 19:34:06 +0200 (CEST)
> Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> "M-x doctor" sounds much like the church, you complain to an invisible man
> who does not exist.

How do you know he or she doesn't exist?

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling 

feels very surprising.  The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".



That's how the rant started.  Because I would not bother with any bug-reports at all.

It is not worth the effort of testing, then being told it is designed that way.  The report was

about the design.  And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no doubt

you would agree with his decision no matter what I say.




From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 20:32:34 Europe/Paris

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 19:28:18 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Instead developers are ranting on about copyright assignment, fsf, rms, women, and bullshit like that.

Instead of worrying what are the developers ranting about, how about
turning your attention to your own rants? They have no end, it seems.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no doubt
> you would agree with his decision no matter what I say.

Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like some people
here, they're just one and the same person hiding behind two different
email addresses.


        Stefan

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Another developer saying the design is great.  Only developers
are saying this.  Users disagree.  



Instead you talk about monitoring technology and privacy rules
because a dog sent a bug-report !!! May I remind you that in
March this year, France set the new security law that works
towards a dystopian surveillance state.  Good luck with that ! 



From: Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 21:09:54 Europe/Paris

> And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no doubt
> you would agree with his decision no matter what I say.

Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like some people
here, they're just one and the same person hiding behind two different
email addresses.


Stefan

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Yuri Khan]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 02:03, <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> wrote:

> There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling
> feels very surprising.  The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".

You have been given a sound reason: ‘icomplete-vertical-mode’ can be
used with either ‘icomplete-mode’ or ‘fido-mode’. If it automatically
enabled ‘icomplete-mode’, it would no longer work with ‘fido-mode’.

The name is unfortunate because it is easy to get the idea that it is
“like icomplete-mode but vertical”, but the principle is good: one
choice between sets of functionality, and an orthogonal choice about
presentation.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 21:24:25 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Another developer

You are wrong: Stefan is just another impersonation of the same person
who writes sometimes as Eli and sometimes as Lars.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
>To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 19/06/2021 21:26:48 Europe/Paris
>Cc: help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>

>On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 02:03, <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> wrote:

>> There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling
>> feels very surprising. The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".

>You have been given a sound reason: ‘icomplete-vertical-mode’ can be
>used with either ‘icomplete-mode’ or ‘fido-mode’. If it automatically
>enabled ‘icomplete-mode’, it would no longer work with ‘fido-mode’.

>The name is unfortunate because it is easy to get the idea that it is
>“like icomplete-mode but vertical”, but the principle is good: one
>choice between sets of functionality, and an orthogonal choice about
>presentation.



I find it more unfortunate that one changes the way icomplete results are displayed

and another mode gets screwed.  Certainly it is not a devine plan.



icomplete-vertical should be exactly as icomplete.  The way you view results should

be immaterial.  But developers cannot accept it as a problem, expecting users to

behave like idiots and pretend it is not a problem.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

So the problem with icomplete does not exist and you are happy about it?



You can just say it, and I will surely bugger off.  It's useless trying to get the

current brains to understand a user trying to help you out.


From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 21:32:33 Europe/Paris

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 21:24:25 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> Another developer

You are wrong: Stefan is just another impersonation of the same person
who writes sometimes as Eli and sometimes as Lars.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 21:43:07 +0200 (CEST)
> 
> So the problem with icomplete does not exist and you are happy about it?

I don't use icomplete.

> You can just say it, and I will surely bugger off.  It's useless trying to get the
> current brains to understand a user trying to help you out.

You might have better chance if you drop the attitude.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[tomas]

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On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 03:09:54PM -0400, Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:
> > And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no doubt
> > you would agree with his decision no matter what I say.
> 
> Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like some people
> here, they're just one and the same person hiding behind two different
> email addresses.

You're not serious, are you?

I'm horrified, I tell you. Horrified!

;-)

(OTOH: both of me (actually all five) are in constant disagreement
ourselves)

Cheers
 - t

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icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 19/06/2021 21:47:11 Europe/Paris

>> From: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 21:43:07 +0200 (CEST)
>> 
>> So the problem with icomplete does not exist and you are happy about it?

>I don't use icomplete.

>> You can just say it, and I will surely bugger off. It's useless trying to get the
>> current brains to understand a user trying to help you out.

>You might have better chance if you drop the attitude.



I do not think there ever was any chance.  The report is closed with the insistence

that the design is good as it is.  I rather give up.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> Without entering into your drama:
>
> Emacs is the advanced, extensible, customizable,
> self-documenting editor.

Well, that last part I don't know, Emacs provides several
interfaces to search and browse documentation and Elisp
docstrings are integrated (found) in the code itself, also
a `defun' that is put into effect (i.e., `eval'd) is then
immediately accessible thru the help system, there is also
a couple of helpers to improve code style and documentation
(they even remind you to add it if it isn't there) - all this
is well and good but OTOH 1) why wouldn't it be like that?
and 2) you _still_ have to write the actual documentation ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

arvid-harnack wrote:

> I get it. It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers
> decide not to give a care about users.
>
> Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck.

Take it easy, I can guarantee you that the people who are
maintainers and review bugs care a lot about the software,
otherwise they wouldn't spend all this time and energy on it.

They just don't see this particular issue the way you do, so
they don't agree. That never happened to you before?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:

>> And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no
>> doubt you would agree with his decision no matter what
>> I say.
>
> Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like
> some people here, they're just one and the same person
> hiding behind two different email addresses.

Hahaha :)

Eli with Rmail on Windows, Lars who wrote Gnus...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> is well and good but OTOH 1) why wouldn't it be like that?

Because before Emacs it wasn't like that?

> and 2) you _still_ have to write the actual documentation ...

Not only that: the user *still* has to read it.
There's gotta be a better way,


        Stefan

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

I am Napoleon actually !


From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 23:28:23 Europe/Paris

Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:

>> And because it is your colleague who closed it, I have no
>> doubt you would agree with his decision no matter what
>> I say.
>
> Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like
> some people here, they're just one and the same person
> hiding behind two different email addresses.

Hahaha :)

Eli with Rmail on Windows, Lars who wrote Gnus...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

Ok.  I decided to take your advice to think more about the problem 



Currently (icomplete-mode 1) is necessary.   And (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) is relatively new.



Could the three wise men ditch (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).



Instead, have a variable one can set (such functionality is already being done for completion-style).



Users can just put 



(icomplete-mode 1)

(setq icomplete-vertical 1)



--------



To disable, one could use 



(setq icomplete-vertical 0)    



Moreover one can use negative numbers



(setq icomplete-vertical -1) 



--------



To disable icomplete totally, use



(icomplete-mode 0)





--------



In summary there shall be no 



(icomplete-vertical-mode 1) 



or 



(icomplete-vertical-mode 0) 



--------



Napoleon







From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 19/06/2021 23:24:51 Europe/Paris

arvid-harnack wrote:

> I get it. It means "fuck all" in the end, when maintainers
> decide not to give a care about users.
>
> Nobody is bothered, nobody gives a fuck.

Take it easy, I can guarantee you that the people who are
maintainers and review bugs care a lot about the software,
otherwise they wouldn't spend all this time and energy on it.

They just don't see this particular issue the way you do, so
they don't agree. That never happened to you before?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2021-06-20 00:23]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > Without entering into your drama:
> >
> > Emacs is the advanced, extensible, customizable,
> > self-documenting editor.
> 
> Well, that last part I don't know, Emacs provides several
> interfaces to search and browse documentation and Elisp
> docstrings are integrated (found) in the code itself, also
> a `defun' that is put into effect (i.e., `eval'd) is then
> immediately accessible thru the help system, there is also
> a couple of helpers to improve code style and documentation
> (they even remind you to add it if it isn't there) - all this
> is well and good but OTOH 1) why wouldn't it be like that?
> and 2) you _still_ have to write the actual documentation ...

I would like that Emacs could develop itself on its own including to
self-document itself, like you say.

The term "self-documenting" it not in that context. IMHO, it refers to
built-in documentation like docstrings, manuals, etc. There are
editors not having documentation built-in.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I would like that Emacs could develop itself on its own
> including to self-document itself, like you say.
>
> The term "self-documenting" it not in that context. IMHO, it
> refers to built-in documentation like docstrings, manuals,
> etc. There are editors not having documentation built-in.

Hydro disc brakes on bicycles are self-adjusting, they do that
themselves by their design, so the cyclist doesn't have to do
it.

This is what I think self-something should mean, you don't do
it as a user or operator, the thing does it for you, by and
to itself.

Self-learning AI algorithm. And so on. It learns to play
checkers by playing it one zillion times against another
instance of itself. And so forth.

Emacs maybe provide certain things to do documentation and
that's great but it doesn't do the documentation. So it is
misleading (or even untrue) IMO.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 02:05]:
> Users can just put 

> (icomplete-mode 1)
> (setq icomplete-vertical 1)

Look:

(defun my-vertical-mode ()
  "Turn on and off the `icomplete-mode' with `icomplete-vertical-mode'"
  (interactive)
  (let ((switch (if icomplete-mode 0 1)))
    (icomplete-mode switch)
    (icomplete-vertical-mode switch)))



-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 23:28:23 +0200
> From:  Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> > Indeed, Eli and Lars never ever disagree, because just like
> > some people here, they're just one and the same person
> > hiding behind two different email addresses.
> 
> Hahaha :)
> 
> Eli with Rmail on Windows, Lars who wrote Gnus...

That just makes it much easier to appear as different people, right?

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Philip Kaludercic]

Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 02:03, <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> wrote:
>
>> There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling
>> feels very surprising.  The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".
>
> You have been given a sound reason: ‘icomplete-vertical-mode’ can be
> used with either ‘icomplete-mode’ or ‘fido-mode’. If it automatically
> enabled ‘icomplete-mode’, it would no longer work with ‘fido-mode’.

I'm not that convinced by this, because icomplete-vertical-mode could
check if fido-mode is enabled, and if not enable icomplete-vertical
mode.

> The name is unfortunate because it is easy to get the idea that it is
> “like icomplete-mode but vertical”, but the principle is good: one
> choice between sets of functionality, and an orthogonal choice about
> presentation.

-- 
	Philip K.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> [2021-06-20 13:45]:
> Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 02:03, <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling
> >> feels very surprising.  The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".
> >
> > You have been given a sound reason: ‘icomplete-vertical-mode’ can be
> > used with either ‘icomplete-mode’ or ‘fido-mode’. If it automatically
> > enabled ‘icomplete-mode’, it would no longer work with ‘fido-mode’.
> 
> I'm not that convinced by this, because icomplete-vertical-mode could
> check if fido-mode is enabled, and if not enable icomplete-vertical
> mode.

It is maybe possible that the attitude of reporter influenced the
review of the code.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 13:03:06 Europe/Paris
Cc: arvid-harnack@lavache.com;
   help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>;
   Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>

* Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> [2021-06-20 13:45]:
> Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 02:03, <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There have been a number op people who agree that the mode enabling
> >> feels very surprising. The answer one gets is - "it is designed that way".
> >
> > You have been given a sound reason: ‘icomplete-vertical-mode’ can be
> > used with either ‘icomplete-mode’ or ‘fido-mode’. If it automatically
> > enabled ‘icomplete-mode’, it would no longer work with ‘fido-mode’.
> 
> I'm not that convinced by this, because icomplete-vertical-mode could
> check if fido-mode is enabled, and if not enable icomplete-vertical
> mode.

It is maybe possible that the attitude of reporter influenced the
review of the code.



It is also likely that my struggles are not isolated.  There
exist many states with hidden side effects and interactions
everywhere) that writing extensions for it is much harder than it
should be. It has enough history and a smart enough user base to
have a lot of cool functionality, but the idea that it is somehow
exceptionally wonderful just doesn't hold.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> [2021-06-18 14:55]:
> 
> > > Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
> > > first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).
> 
> Yes, this is intended. icomplete-vertical-mode is a submode of
> icomplete.

Now we know it is not only related to `icomplete' it is also related
to `fido-mode'.

Additionally the documentation is not clear that it works only within
`icomplete-mode' or `fido-mode'

> icomplete-vertical-mode is an autoloaded interactive Lisp closure in
> ‘icomplete.el’.

> (icomplete-vertical-mode &optional ARG)

>   Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 28.1.

> Toggle vertical candidate display in ‘icomplete-mode’ or
> ‘fido-mode’.

The above does not tell me clearly that I have to first enable one of
those modes for `icomplete-vertical-mode' to work. This may be clear
to person writing it, I don't feel it is enough for users.

> If called interactively, toggle ‘Icomplete-Vertical mode’.  If
> the prefix argument is positive, enable the mode, and if it is
> zero or negative, disable the mode.

The above even further establishes the fact that this function can be
or could be called alone to toggle it. 

> If called from Lisp, toggle the mode if ARG is ‘toggle’.  Enable
> the mode if ARG is nil, omitted, or is a positive number.
> Disable the mode if ARG is a negative number.

The above again establishes more information how it would work alone
without dependencies.

Maybe documentation shall be improved to tell that one has to call
first one or the other mode and that `icomplete-vertical-mode'
functions only under one of those two.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 14:21]:
> It is also likely that my struggles are not isolated.  There
> exist many states with hidden side effects and interactions
> everywhere) that writing extensions for it is much harder than it
> should be. It has enough history and a smart enough user base to
> have a lot of cool functionality, but the idea that it is somehow
> exceptionally wonderful just doesn't hold.

I can understand struggles. Generalizations are not useful, what
matters are numbers. If you look into numbers of bugs handled and
updates to Emacs that is the result of the work of developers. If you
like Emacs then you do like developers although you were not maybe
aware of it. All of it was writen by RMS and developers.

In case of `icomplete-vertical-mode' that is function in development
version of Emacs. It is not even official, stable, it is development
version. So take it easy. Test it, and tell your un-biased if possible
non-emotional review of your viewpoints and post them in appropriate
mailing list (otherwise developers may choose good mind blowing novels
to read instead of a emotions on mailing list). 

This list is not for development issues, the emacs-devel is for that,
or bug report. Even if bug was closed, there is no need for you to
engage in emotional war. It is much better if you give your opinion on
that same closed bug report, as somebody else will read it and give
their opinions until final consent is there. It really matters not if
bug report was closed or not.

Solution for you personally has been already found, use it. Bug
reports are appreciated, but don't introduce attitudes that are harder
to handle by other people.

Writing extensions for Emacs is very easy in general. Just do
it. Don't connect irrelevant writings with irrelevant other issues. I
look at it from my viewpoint, nobody forbids me writing extensions for
Emacs, I am free doing so. When you wish to include it in GNU ELPA,
include it, you are free. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

I have pointed out that the idea of making icomplete-vertical as a mode created the problem.



From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 13:21:12 Europe/Paris
Cc: arvid-harnack@lavache.com;
   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org;
   moasenwood@zoho.eu

* Ergus <spacibba@aol.com> [2021-06-18 14:55]:
> 
> > > Have found that calling (icomplete-vertical-mode 1) without
> > > first calling (icomplete-mode 1), does not enable (icomplete-vertical-mode 1).
> 
> Yes, this is intended. icomplete-vertical-mode is a submode of
> icomplete.

Now we know it is not only related to `icomplete' it is also related
to `fido-mode'.

Additionally the documentation is not clear that it works only within
`icomplete-mode' or `fido-mode'

> icomplete-vertical-mode is an autoloaded interactive Lisp closure in
> ‘icomplete.el’.

> (icomplete-vertical-mode &optional ARG)

> Probably introduced at or before Emacs version 28.1.

> Toggle vertical candidate display in ‘icomplete-mode’ or
> ‘fido-mode’.

The above does not tell me clearly that I have to first enable one of
those modes for `icomplete-vertical-mode' to work. This may be clear
to person writing it, I don't feel it is enough for users.

> If called interactively, toggle ‘Icomplete-Vertical mode’. If
> the prefix argument is positive, enable the mode, and if it is
> zero or negative, disable the mode.

The above even further establishes the fact that this function can be
or could be called alone to toggle it. 

> If called from Lisp, toggle the mode if ARG is ‘toggle’. Enable
> the mode if ARG is nil, omitted, or is a positive number.
> Disable the mode if ARG is a negative number.

The above again establishes more information how it would work alone
without dependencies.

Maybe documentation shall be improved to tell that one has to call
first one or the other mode and that `icomplete-vertical-mode'
functions only under one of those two.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 14:34]:
> I have pointed out that the idea of making icomplete-vertical as a
> mode created the problem.

If it does create the problem depends from a viewpoint and experience,
knowledge, many various factors. Initially, when I discovered
`fido-mode' and `icomplete-mode' I was disappointed as `helm' and
`ivy-mode' look so much better and user experience is safer. There is
high chance for me personally to make mistakes in the built-in
completion modes. 

The function `icomplete-vertical-mode' should maybe be split into
'fido-vertical-mode' which would invoke `fido-mode' automatically, and
`icomplete-vertical-mode' which would invoke `icomplete-mode'
automatically'. It is yet in the development version of Emacs, it is
not finished issue, even if it is, there is always room to improve
it.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

I sent the bug report because I did not simply want a solution for me personally.



We have to recognise the apparent surprise to some Emacs developers, when pointing out

that some capabilities are difficult to discover and use. 








From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 13:30:30 Europe/Paris
Cc: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>;
   help-gnu-emacs <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>;
   Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 14:21]:
> It is also likely that my struggles are not isolated.  There
> exist many states with hidden side effects and interactions
> everywhere) that writing extensions for it is much harder than it
> should be. It has enough history and a smart enough user base to
> have a lot of cool functionality, but the idea that it is somehow
> exceptionally wonderful just doesn't hold.

I can understand struggles. Generalizations are not useful, what
matters are numbers. If you look into numbers of bugs handled and
updates to Emacs that is the result of the work of developers. If you
like Emacs then you do like developers although you were not maybe
aware of it. All of it was writen by RMS and developers.

In case of `icomplete-vertical-mode' that is function in development
version of Emacs. It is not even official, stable, it is development
version. So take it easy. Test it, and tell your un-biased if possible
non-emotional review of your viewpoints and post them in appropriate
mailing list (otherwise developers may choose good mind blowing novels
to read instead of a emotions on mailing list). 

This list is not for development issues, the emacs-devel is for that,
or bug report. Even if bug was closed, there is no need for you to
engage in emotional war. It is much better if you give your opinion on
that same closed bug report, as somebody else will read it and give
their opinions until final consent is there. It really matters not if
bug report was closed or not.

Solution for you personally has been already found, use it. Bug
reports are appreciated, but don't introduce attitudes that are harder
to handle by other people.

Writing extensions for Emacs is very easy in general. Just do
it. Don't connect irrelevant writings with irrelevant other issues. I
look at it from my viewpoint, nobody forbids me writing extensions for
Emacs, I am free doing so. When you wish to include it in GNU ELPA,
include it, you are free. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
>To: arvid-harnack@lavache.com
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 20/06/2021 13:46:28 Europe/Paris
>Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>;
>   help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org;
>   moasenwood@zoho.eu

>* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 14:34]:
>> I have pointed out that the idea of making icomplete-vertical as a
>> mode created the problem.

>If it does create the problem depends from a viewpoint and experience,
>knowledge, many various factors. Initially, when I discovered
>`fido-mode' and `icomplete-mode' I was disappointed as `helm' and
>`ivy-mode' look so much better and user experience is safer. There is
>high chance for me personally to make mistakes in the built-in
>completion modes. 



I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works.  But helm and
ivy are both too big.  Furthermore, they are external packages.
icomplete can more easily implement a vertical mode with not much
complication than using ivy.  It is very easy to criticise me
about my attitude than recognising a bad job.  I know it is in
development stage, but it is a crucial stage for change before
the implementation hardens in place.  Otherwise it will be much
harder for suggestions to be applied.



>The function `icomplete-vertical-mode' should maybe be split into
>'fido-vertical-mode' which would invoke `fido-mode' automatically, and
>`icomplete-vertical-mode' which would invoke `icomplete-mode'
>automatically'. It is yet in the development version of Emacs, it is
>not finished issue, even if it is, there is always room to improve
>it.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE]

On 2021-06-20 at 17:27:35 +0200,
arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works.  But helm and ivy are
> both too big.  Furthermore, they are external packages.  icomplete can
> more easily implement a vertical mode with not much complication than
> using ivy.  It is very easy to criticise me about my attitude than
> recognising a bad job.  I know it is in development stage, but it is a
> crucial stage for change before the implementation hardens in place. 
> Otherwise it will be much harder for suggestions to be applied.

As per https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html:

    “Free software” means that ... the users have the freedom to run,
    copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software.

Evidently, the existing completion frameworks fail to meet your
standards and expectations.  I think it's safe to infer that you've run
various frameworks.  I don't know whether you've copied or distributed
them.  Your commentary indicates a certain level of study, at least from
a user's perspective.  IMO, the next steps are clear.

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
>To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
>Date: 20/06/2021 17:44:19 Europe/Paris

>On 2021-06-20 at 17:27:35 +0200,
>arvid-harnack@lavache.com wrote:

>> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works.  But helm and ivy are
>> both too big.  Furthermore, they are external packages. icomplete can
>> more easily implement a vertical mode with not much complication than
>> using ivy.  It is very easy to criticise me about my attitude than
>> recognising a bad job.  I know it is in development stage, but it is a
>> crucial stage for change before the implementation hardens in place. 
>> Otherwise it will be much harder for suggestions to be applied.

>As per https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html:

>“Free software” means that ... the users have the freedom to run,
>copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software.

>Evidently, the existing completion frameworks fail to meet your
>standards and expectations. I think it's safe to infer that you've run
>various frameworks. I don't know whether you've copied or distributed
>them. Your commentary indicates a certain level of study, at least from

>a user's perspective. IMO, the next steps are clear.



And to many others, I am sure.  You are right, I have run various
frameworks.  some copied, some written.  But to write can be
hindered by the tools that are available.  It is very easy to
break some other thing.  The quality I end up with also depends
on the quality of the work of others.  And I have many years of
experience with testing department in a global technology leader.

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

arvid-harnack wrote:

> And to many others, I am sure. You are right, I have run
> various frameworks. some copied, some written. But to write
> can be hindered by the tools that are available. It is very
> easy to break some other thing. The quality I end up with
> also depends on the quality of the work of others.
> And I have many years of experience with testing department
> in a global technology leader.

... is this for real?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Jean Louis]

* arvid-harnack@lavache.com <arvid-harnack@lavache.com> [2021-06-20 18:28]:
> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works.  But helm and
> ivy are both too big.  Furthermore, they are external packages.
> icomplete can more easily implement a vertical mode with not much
> complication than using ivy.  It is very easy to criticise me
> about my attitude than recognising a bad job.

I have been using it today and I find it useful. Especially because
it is a built-in, it is useful.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works. But helm
>> and ivy are both too big. Furthermore, they are external
>> packages. icomplete can more easily implement a vertical
>> mode with not much complication than using ivy. It is very
>> easy to criticise me about my attitude than recognising
>> a bad job.
>
> I have been using it today and I find it useful.
> Especially because it is a built-in, it is useful.

:)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 21:52:27 Europe/Paris

Jean Louis wrote:

>> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works. But helm
>> and ivy are both too big. Furthermore, they are external
>> packages. icomplete can more easily implement a vertical
>> mode with not much complication than using ivy. It is very
>> easy to criticise me about my attitude than recognising
>> a bad job.
>
> I have been using it today and I find it useful.
> Especially because it is a built-in, it is useful.

:)



Yes, if some ideas could be taken from ivy in the vertical case, I would 

prefer it, because as you say, when things are built-in, the proposition of

using it routinely is most attractive.



The horizontal view works well and I like it, and the vertical has benefits

when the list of matches becomes large.  



I currently cycle around between icomplete-horizontal (with orderless style) 

and ivy.



-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal



From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 21:52:27 Europe/Paris

Jean Louis wrote:

>> I am also disappointed when I see how ivy works. But helm
>> and ivy are both too big. Furthermore, they are external
>> packages. icomplete can more easily implement a vertical
>> mode with not much complication than using ivy. It is very
>> easy to criticise me about my attitude than recognising
>> a bad job.
>
> I have been using it today and I find it useful.
> Especially because it is a built-in, it is useful.

:)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect

[arvid-harnack]

>... is this for real ?



It is.


From: Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: icomplete-vertical-mode not taking effect
Date: 20/06/2021 18:07:14 Europe/Paris

arvid-harnack wrote:

> And to many others, I am sure. You are right, I have run
> various frameworks. some copied, some written. But to write
> can be hindered by the tools that are available. It is very
> easy to break some other thing. The quality I end up with
> also depends on the quality of the work of others.
> And I have many years of experience with testing department
> in a global technology leader.

... is this for real?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal