From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Scrollbar bug on OS X Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:12:33 +0100 Message-ID: References: <7ca1709813602da58a139cee58fb4c63@gmail.com> <3b9c4e2f33d37fed55f640dcafbc8d65@gmail.com> <87is31i8jq.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <0ba853825b580f74347416c2c0b4a169@gmail.com> <87vf70ausz.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> <5b72982df8c370d3a58358de397046c8@gmail.com> <86583cd4c0fa9cf9e4a562be66bb3a55@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1112966455 7215 80.91.229.2 (8 Apr 2005 13:20:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 08 15:20:54 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJtP9-0003Hi-Sx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:20:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJsyf-0000kP-2J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:52:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJsyF-0000dt-96 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:52:23 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DJsy4-0000Y1-4X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:52:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DJsy4-0000Xy-0w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:52:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [64.233.184.204] (helo=wproxy.gmail.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DJtIf-0004s4-3g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:13:29 -0400 Original-Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 50so996959wri for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 06:12:35 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; b=TkeMhIG9CkHwh1qqHgJdWuosdkwkjN7mLCBSu3Pb8nsPklmRGZHG8/obVfUDWW4NcERy3gh8kxrqa92CDkEV94Q0VsQchGj8JNurNLfUQUHhcnSYjhK7NmtijS6qraEJNeHSEMpXMxjyKp8wrPR0iqn3JPZP2sFp1GzDXsovOaA= Original-Received: by 10.54.79.17 with SMTP id c17mr917391wrb; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 06:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?129.215.110.120? ([129.215.110.120]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 8sm1514816wrl.2005.04.08.06.12.34; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 06:12:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Original-To: Stefan Monnier X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:35758 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:35758 On 8 Apr 2005, at 13:42, Stefan Monnier wrote: > There's consistency and there's consistency. In my experience, what > people > care about is "in which direction and by how much does my thingy move > when > I click with button X on part Y of the scrollbar" and "does the > slider's > position and size reflect the part and quantity of my thingy that is > currently displayed". The size of the slider while dragging is often > something they barely notice since while dragging they're not looking > at the > scrollbar but at the thingy instead. [ replace "thingy" with "buffer", > "spreadsheet", "html page", ...] Of course there are priorities, and absolutely, the size of the scrollbar is less important than good scrolling behavior when you click underneath it or when you drag it. _Exact_ size - as pointed out by others before - might be totally unimportant. As it stands now, the scrollbars are jerking around in size, however, and when you try to drag the scrollbar, the displayed portion of the buffer will jump somewhere unpredictable. Anyways, can I as a user please get the freedom to configure whether I like over-scrolling or not? ( cf. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2003-03/msg00593.html ) > The only reason why you disagree is because you haven't tried to write > the > code that interfaces something like Emacs with one of those silly > scrollbars. After working on such code you realize that GUI guidelines > might be great, but they shouldn't be "cast in code" directly in the > GUI > library because there are always exceptions. What would be a good argument for such an exception? The fact that it's hard to interface with the event-driven (or whatever) interface models of certain current APIs might be due to other players in this game than the UI toolkit. Let's say one can state what would be good from a UI perspective, and then one will have to figure out what is reasonably doable from a technical standpoint. Arguments IMHO start with the user-centric view! Either way, I would humbly suggest that the bugs be fixed first; I know it's hard and I know that I can't do it lacking knowledge of the technical implementation. And I understand these things are difficult, so I won't even try.