From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Support for bringing package change logs to the user's attention Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 07:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527259016 5593 195.159.176.226 (25 May 2018 14:36:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 14:36:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: chrisdone@googlemail.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 25 16:36:52 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMDps-0001Nc-Gd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:36:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44398 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMDrz-0007zO-Au for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:39:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45915) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMDfs-0007Cu-P2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:26:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMDfo-0004mZ-OZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:26:32 -0400 Original-Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:51928) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMDfo-0004lt-E6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:26:28 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w4PEQ9vE072045; Fri, 25 May 2018 14:26:26 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=vKvths63FaazZ6W708nno+2WkrCQsYrqraZcY9XQpzg=; b=P7vrEt/+eXYPG1rAiHPdBqYNlQi+dEv7ZzWOiE1/tbgcIwEWMHNOTNTuwe8GYqa8uIZu p6iMgNp8H9ftC5Ue1Z5uM61jxBIliwZkq/1pDCr5ciMH8K4szjELAjTY+bYNH+lwDKXh ZztIW099AoUiErza8S1Eu6pZH+dd6/MMTItY+GXl7cVElTEYuA2zZ1nuOZ/eIfKLh+w6 bRsvPAxa/SPJGkA7gtx2Z2DjgS/KyVWKr0+HDmyvx97D9APh1lyl3Jvupu6cxNzWpa1W YoWoeTE77kwfv+t7HM9jWPJOomaBBBzTdYomHBCgJXR4xd9zv4TGUKxMRadkfEmkLX81 Xw== Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2j62swkjrc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 25 May 2018 14:26:26 +0000 Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4PEQPAS011126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 25 May 2018 14:26:26 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4PEQOl1025768; Fri, 25 May 2018 14:26:25 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4690.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8903 signatures=668700 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1805250156 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.85 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225708 Archived-At: > Sorry, the obvious approach of simply opening the CHANGELOG file > would absolutely be sufficient here. No parsing neccessary if > we do that. Changelogs are usually written in descending order. I like a `;;; Change Log:' entry in an Elisp file (or in a separate file, in the case of a multi-file Elisp package). IOW, I'm in favor of change-log histories, whether in the code-files themselves, as separate files, or recorded in a vc system. However, I think there was a lot more in your first message. You made some good suggestions and posed some good questions, which are worth thinking about - they go beyond just pointing users to existing development change logs. I'm in favor, for example, of providing users with a quick What's New view of the delta from either the last available version or the last version that the given user has. And doing so from both a code-changes point of view and a feature/behavior-changes point of view. Ideally, we'd provide different ways for a user to see what's changed, between an arbitrary two points in the evolution, and at different granularities of view. The granularity thing is important for users: a development change-log entry does not necessarily express the effect of a change from a user point of view. Some reading between the lines and rumination are needed (along with some trial and error), to discover what's really changed. IOW, change logs are great for implementors, but they are not the only, and not often the best, way for users to see what's changed. No, I don't have any particular ideas about what might be done to help users here. But yes, I think there's lots of room for helping. Emacs has a great user-help system, in general. But it doesn't yet offer much to help users see what's new or what's changed. Discovery is not just a one-time, newbie/novice thing for a given feature. It's a recurring thing: discover what's changed and how it affects your use of Emacs and what you can do with it.