Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Christopher Dimech]

The Elisp Reference Manual says nothing about inserting tables.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Eric S Fraga]

Why should it?
-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 29.0.50 2022-11-01) on Debian 11.4

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Akib Azmain Turja]

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Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> The Elisp Reference Manual says nothing about inserting tables.
>

What type of table?  Org table?  Markdown table?  Hash table?  Dining
table?

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
Fediverse: akib@hostux.social
Codeberg: akib
emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption."

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2022 at 4:39 AM
> From: "Eric S Fraga" <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables
>
> Why should it?
> -- 
> Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 29.0.50 2022-11-01) on Debian 11.4
 
Making tables is a fairly common thing to do.  Perhaps there are
deficiencies in the non-org table commands and setup?  
 

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

Perhaps add additional information in the source code then?



------- Original Message -------
On Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 4:39 PM, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:


> Why should it?
> --
> Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 29.0.50 2022-11-01) on Debian 11.4

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Fraga, Eric]

On Friday,  4 Nov 2022 at 18:07, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> Making tables is a fairly common thing to do.  Perhaps there are
> deficiencies in the non-org table commands and setup?

But why is this an issue with the elisp reference manual?  It might be
an issue for the Emacs user manual, at best.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via gnus (Emacs 29.0.50 2022-11-01) on Debian 11.4

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Akib Azmain Turja wrote:

>> The Elisp Reference Manual says nothing about
>> inserting tables.
>
> What type of table? Org table? Markdown table? Hash table?
> Dining table?

Dining philosopher's table ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 12:57 PM, Fraga, Eric <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:


> On Friday, 4 Nov 2022 at 18:07, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> 
> > Making tables is a fairly common thing to do. Perhaps there are
> > deficiencies in the non-org table commands and setup?
> 
> 
> But why is this an issue with the elisp reference manual? It might be
> an issue for the Emacs user manual, at best.

Well, you seem to know better.  As I was talking about making tables from 
elisp, I though there should be something in the Elisp Manual as well.
Or perhaps in the Elisp Tutorial? 

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> [2022-11-05 19:38]:
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> > The Elisp Reference Manual says nothing about inserting tables.
> >
> 
> What type of table?  Org table?  Markdown table?  Hash table?  Dining
> table?

When thinking of any table, I like to think of data and then the
visual table becomes the representation of it.

"Inserting table" means "representing data in a table".

Something I do every day.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 6:48 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Akib Azmain Turja akib@disroot.org [2022-11-05 19:38]:
> 
> > Christopher Dimech dimech@gmx.com writes:
> > 
> > > The Elisp Reference Manual says nothing about inserting tables.
> > 
> > What type of table? Org table? Markdown table? Hash table? Dining
> > table?
> 
> 
> When thinking of any table, I like to think of data and then the
> visual table becomes the representation of it.
> 
> "Inserting table" means "representing data in a table".
> 
> Something I do every day.

Right.  But there does not seem to be a let of support or tutorial about
how to make them in any type of buffer.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-06 11:32]:
> > When thinking of any table, I like to think of data and then the
> > visual table becomes the representation of it.
> > 
> > "Inserting table" means "representing data in a table".
> > 
> > Something I do every day.
> 
> Right.  But there does not seem to be a let of support or tutorial about
> how to make them in any type of buffer.

Because those are higher level functions and packages. Maybe it exists
somewhere among existing Emacs packages. 

You can't expect anything you wish to be built in, that is why you
will create functions which you need.

I find alignment a difficult problem, that is why using Org table and
automatica alignment, and then export to Unicode or similar, will make
nice tables for purpose of presentation.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 9:48 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com [2022-11-06 11:32]:
> 
> > > When thinking of any table, I like to think of data and then the
> > > visual table becomes the representation of it.
> > > 
> > > "Inserting table" means "representing data in a table".
> > > 
> > > Something I do every day.
> > 
> > Right. But there does not seem to be a let of support or tutorial about
> > how to make them in any type of buffer.
> 
> 
> Because those are higher level functions and packages. Maybe it exists
> somewhere among existing Emacs packages.
> 
> You can't expect anything you wish to be built in, that is why you
> will create functions which you need.
> 
> I find alignment a difficult problem, that is why using Org table and
> automatica alignment, and then export to Unicode or similar, will make
> nice tables for purpose of presentation.

Right.  Making the alignment is the big problem.  I like making the structure
first, and them have the necessary functionality to make the table, but
without requiring any specific mode.
 

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-06 13:12]:
> Right.  Making the alignment is the big problem.  I like making the
> structure first, and them have the necessary functionality to make
> the table, but without requiring any specific mode.

1. Make Org table

2. Align it by using functions and temporary buffers as
   explained. Mentioning "Org" does not mean you need to use Org mode
   visually. You can insert tables created by Org functions into any
   buffer.

3. Export it to Unicode -- this part I have not yet solved myself.

Voila

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 12:26 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com [2022-11-06 13:12]:
> 
> > Right. Making the alignment is the big problem. I like making the
> > structure first, and them have the necessary functionality to make
> > the table, but without requiring any specific mode.
> 
> 
> 1. Make Org table
> 
> 2. Align it by using functions and temporary buffers as
> explained. Mentioning "Org" does not mean you need to use Org mode
> visually. You can insert tables created by Org functions into any
> buffer.

I suppose it is fine that org mode provides the functionality without requiring
changing to org-mode buffer.  Perhaps org can take care or all table creation
routines.
 
> 3. Export it to Unicode -- this part I have not yet solved myself.
> 
> Voila
> 
> --
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

> I suppose it is fine that org mode provides the
> functionality without requiring changing to org-mode buffer.

It's often like that, you have to bring in ERC to do something
that has nothing to do with ERC :)

But I want and use ERC anyway so I also suppose it's fine ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 1:01 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Heime wrote:
> 
> > I suppose it is fine that org mode provides the
> > functionality without requiring changing to org-mode buffer.
> 
> 
> It's often like that, you have to bring in ERC to do something
> that has nothing to do with ERC :)
> 
> But I want and use ERC anyway so I also suppose it's fine ...
 
My understanding was that you have to be in org mode to use them, but
I wanted general routines that would work in any mode.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

>> It's often like that, you have to bring in ERC to do
>> something that has nothing to do with ERC :)
>> 
>> But I want and use ERC anyway so I also suppose it's fine ...
>
> My understanding was that you have to be in org mode to use
> them, but I wanted general routines that would work in
> any mode.

Functions which you create with `defun' are global, you can
use them from anywhere.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

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Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> writes:

> As I was talking about making tables from elisp, I though there should
> be something in the Elisp Manual as well.  Or perhaps in the Elisp
> Tutorial?

Emacs doesn't have a simple function to format simple text tables
built-in (so there is nothing to document).  I wrote my own one some
time ago, maybe it is of help:


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Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-06 15:55]:
> I suppose it is fine that org mode provides the functionality
> without requiring changing to org-mode buffer.  Perhaps org can take
> care or all table creation routines.

Exactly.

You can use any functions in Emacs for programming, no matter if
functions belong to some other package or not. 

You need not invoke Org mode to use internally some Org functions and
display their results in any kind of buffers.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-06 17:50]:
> My understanding was that you have to be in org mode to use them,
> but I wanted general routines that would work in any mode.

You do not need to be in Org mode when you use org functions
programmatically.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> [2022-11-06 23:50]:
> Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> writes:
> 
> > As I was talking about making tables from elisp, I though there should
> > be something in the Elisp Manual as well.  Or perhaps in the Elisp
> > Tutorial?
> 
> Emacs doesn't have a simple function to format simple text tables
> built-in (so there is nothing to document).  I wrote my own one some
> time ago, maybe it is of help:

There are nice concept to think about in tbl.el

I would use list of lists for table elements. I consider it common
that some columns need to be added as total and some columns need to
be aligned. Then parsing all cells of the table could find the maximum
width of some columns, and make sure of formatting.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 5:38 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com [2022-11-06 17:50]:
> 
> > My understanding was that you have to be in org mode to use them,
> > but I wanted general routines that would work in any mode.
> 
> 
> You do not need to be in Org mode when you use org functions
> programmatically.

You have said, thank you.  But in one of your functions you have
called (org-mode).

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 8:48 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes:
> 
> > As I was talking about making tables from elisp, I though there should
> > be something in the Elisp Manual as well. Or perhaps in the Elisp
> > Tutorial?
> 
> 
> Emacs doesn't have a simple function to format simple text tables
> built-in (so there is nothing to document). I wrote my own one some
> time ago, maybe it is of help:
>
> Michael.

We could have table.el expanded so emacs can provide good table making functionality.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 8:48 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes:
> 
> > As I was talking about making tables from elisp, I though there should
> > be something in the Elisp Manual as well. Or perhaps in the Elisp
> > Tutorial?
> 
> 
> Emacs doesn't have a simple function to format simple text tables
> built-in (so there is nothing to document). I wrote my own one some
> time ago, maybe it is of help:

I have the following function that makes a list of lists, with one list
constituting a row.

(defun pmchart (descr rekr)
  "Makes a tabel structure."
  (mapcar
   (lambda (n)
     (append (make-list n "xxxxx")
             (make-list (- 3 n) "")))
   rekr))

The call

(pmchart '("A" "B" "C" "D" "E") [3 2 2 1 0])

produces

'(("xxxxx" "xxxxx" "xxxxx")
  ("xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
  ("xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
  ("xxxxx" "" "")
  ("" "" "")))

I would like to adapt it to produce 

'(("A" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "xxxxx")
  ("B" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
  ("C" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
  ("D" "xxxxx" "" "")
  ("E" "" "" "")))

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

Calling org-mode in temporary buffer is not visible.

Jean

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

> We could have table.el expanded so emacs can provide good
> table making functionality.

Are we talking ASCII tables?

Because there is support for TeX, roff, HTML, Markdown etc,
obviously ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 12:32 PM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Heime wrote:
> 
> > We could have table.el expanded so emacs can provide good
> > table making functionality.
> 
> 
> Are we talking ASCII tables?
> 
> Because there is support for TeX, roff, HTML, Markdown etc,
> obviously ...

Yes ascii tables one can print in a buffer that takes care of cell
width and text placement (left,center,right).

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> I would use list of lists for table elements

They are. (?)

> I consider it common that some columns need to be added as total and
> some columns need to be aligned. Then parsing all cells of the table
> could find the maximum width of some columns, and make sure of
> formatting.

That's also how it works, unless I misunderstand what you mean.

Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Michael Heerdegen wrote:

> That's also how it works, unless I misunderstand what
> you mean.

He means like this:

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/bike/TIRE

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> writes:

> I would like to adapt it to produce 
>
> '(("A" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "xxxxx")
>   ("B" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
>   ("C" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
>   ("D" "xxxxx" "" "")
>   ("E" "" "" "")))

`cl-mapcar' allows to map over multiple sequences.  Alternatively use
nested `mapcar' calls.

Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 6:02 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes:
> 
> > I would like to adapt it to produce
> > 
> > '(("A" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "xxxxx")
> > ("B" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
> > ("C" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
> > ("D" "xxxxx" "" "")
> > ("E" "" "" "")))
> 
> 
> `cl-mapcar' allows to map over multiple sequences. Alternatively use nested` mapcar' calls.
> 
> Michael.

Thanks, I would go with the nested version.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 6:02 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes:
> 
> > I would like to adapt it to produce
> > 
> > '(("A" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "xxxxx")
> > ("B" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
> > ("C" "xxxxx" "xxxxx" "")
> > ("D" "xxxxx" "" "")
> > ("E" "" "" "")))
> 
> 
> `cl-mapcar' allows to map over multiple sequences. Alternatively use nested` mapcar' calls.
> 
> Michael.

There is also the possibility of using mapcar*  

What do you think of it?

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> writes:

> > `cl-mapcar' allows to map over multiple sequences. Alternatively use
> > nested` mapcar' calls.
>
> There is also the possibility of using mapcar*  

That's only the old, now obsolete, name of `cl-mapcar'.

Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 9:12 PM, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote:


> Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes:
> 
> > > `cl-mapcar' allows to map over multiple sequences. Alternatively use nested` mapcar' calls.
> > 
> > There is also the possibility of using mapcar*
> 
> 
> That's only the old, now obsolete, name of `cl-mapcar'.
> 
> Michael.


Have been focusing on this implementation.  But I have to gen rid of the 
split-string part in mapconcat.  Have found that I can use seq-mapn to 
iterate over two sequences simultaneously.  Then use mapconcat to make the 
string, and use y (from the selectr sequence) as a counter in the function
argument. There exists the convenient "prog1" that makes it possible to 
lower the counter after the "if" form, but return the value of the "if" 
form (the first function in the prog1 body).

(chart-struct '("Peter" "Paul") [3 2])

(defun chart-struct (descr selectr)
  "TODO."

  (seq-mapn
     (lambda (x y)
       (list x (mapconcat
		  (lambda (s)
		    (prog1
			(if (> y 0) (append (make-list y "xxxxx")))
                      (setq y (1- y))))
		  (split-string "|||" "" t))
             (append (make-list y ""))))
     descr
     selectr))

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

> (setq y (1- y))

(cl-decf y)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables:
https://hyperscope.link/7/3/9/8/1/Emacs-Lisp-rcd-box-el-package-for-table-drawings-73981.html

(rcd-box-table '(("Transport to Makindye" 1 20.00)
		 ("Mobile charges" 1 2000))
	       '("Description" "Quantity" "Subtotal")
	       '("left" "center" "right")) ⇒ "
╔═══════════════════════╦═══════════════════════╦═══════════════════════╗
║ Description           ║       Quantity        ║              Subtotal ║
╠═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╣
║ Transport to Makindye ║           1           ║                  20.0 ║
╠═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╣
║ Mobile charges        ║           1           ║                  2000 ║
╚═══════════════════════╩═══════════════════════╩═══════════════════════╝

"

(rcd-box-table '((1 2 3))) ⇒ "
╔═══╦═══╦═══╗
║ 1 ║ 2 ║ 3 ║
╚═══╩═══╩═══╝

"

(rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello"))) ⇒ "
╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
║ 1     ║ 2     ║ 3     ║ Hello ║
╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝

"

(rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil "center") ⇒ "
╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
║   1   ║   2   ║   3   ║ Hello ║
╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝

"


(rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil '("left" "right" "right" "center")) ⇒ "
╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
║ 1     ║     2 ║     3 ║ Hello ║
╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝

"

Major bug is that cell width is currently calculated by the
longest cell length. Later I will calculcate it by column.

I also wish to add the FOOTER option that may include functions
to calculate column values.

(rcd-box-table '(("Good bye for now"))) ⇒ "
╔══════════════════╗
║ Good bye for now ║
╚══════════════════╝

"

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
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In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 6:39 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables:
> https://hyperscope.link/7/3/9/8/1/Emacs-Lisp-rcd-box-el-package-for-table-drawings-73981.html
> 
> (rcd-box-table '(("Transport to Makindye" 1 20.00)
> ("Mobile charges" 1 2000))
> '("Description" "Quantity" "Subtotal")
> '("left" "center" "right")) ⇒ "
> ╔═══════════════════════╦═══════════════════════╦═══════════════════════╗
> ║ Description ║ Quantity ║ Subtotal ║
> ╠═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╣
> ║ Transport to Makindye ║ 1 ║ 20.0 ║
> ╠═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╬═══════════════════════╣
> ║ Mobile charges ║ 1 ║ 2000 ║
> ╚═══════════════════════╩═══════════════════════╩═══════════════════════╝
> 
> "
> 
> (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3))) ⇒ "
> ╔═══╦═══╦═══╗
> ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ 3 ║
> ╚═══╩═══╩═══╝
> 
> "
> 
> (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello"))) ⇒ "
> ╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
> ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ 3 ║ Hello ║
> ╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝
> 
> "
> 
> (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil "center") ⇒ "
> ╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
> ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ 3 ║ Hello ║
> ╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝
> 
> "
> 
> 
> (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil '("left" "right" "right" "center")) ⇒ "
> ╔═══════╦═══════╦═══════╦═══════╗
> ║ 1 ║ 2 ║ 3 ║ Hello ║
> ╚═══════╩═══════╩═══════╩═══════╝
> 
> "
> 
> Major bug is that cell width is currently calculated by the
> longest cell length. Later I will calculcate it by column.
> 
> I also wish to add the FOOTER option that may include functions
> to calculate column values.
> 
> (rcd-box-table '(("Good bye for now"))) ⇒ "
> ╔══════════════════╗
> ║ Good bye for now ║
> ╚══════════════════╝
> 
> "

You should consider the possibility when someone does not want a separator between rows.
For instance I did like the idea of introducing a separator with "|--\n")

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables [...]

Trapped in a box
I'm not alone
I know of others
with a box as their home ...

╔═══════════════════════╗
║ Very impressive, Jean ║
╚═══════════════════════╝

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-11-08 14:07]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables [...]
> 
> Trapped in a box
> I'm not alone
> I know of others
> with a box as their home ...
> 
> ╔═══════════════════════╗
> ║ Very impressive, Jean ║
> ╚═══════════════════════╝

(rcd-box-table '(("Monday" "Brännvins Sill" "Senapssill" "Löksill")
		 ("Tuesday" "Kottbular" "Kottbular" "Kottbullar")
		 ("Wednesday" "Brännvins Sill" "Senapssill" "Löksill"))
	       '("" "Morning" "Lunch" "Dinner") 
	       "center") ⇒ "
╔════════════════╦════════════════╦════════════════╦════════════════╗
║                ║    Morning     ║     Lunch      ║     Dinner     ║
╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
║     Monday     ║ Brännvins Sill ║   Senapssill   ║    Löksill     ║
╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
║    Tuesday     ║   Kottbular    ║   Kottbular    ║   Kottbullar   ║
╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
║   Wednesday    ║ Brännvins Sill ║   Senapssill   ║    Löksill     ║
╚════════════════╩════════════════╩════════════════╩════════════════╝

"
-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-08 10:58]:
> You should consider the possibility when someone does not want a
> separator between rows.  For instance I did like the idea of
> introducing a separator with "|--\n")

Sure.

(rcd-box-table '(("SEPINT" "Introducing separator |--" "3x pizza = $30")
		 ("SOMEONE" "Not want separator between rows" "3x pizza = $30"))
          '("SKU" "Description" "Amount")
          '("center" "center" "right")) ⇒ "
╔═════════╦═════════════════════════════════╦════════════════╗
║   SKU   ║           Description           ║         Amount ║
╠═════════╬═════════════════════════════════╬════════════════╣
║ SEPINT  ║    Introducing separator |--    ║ 3x pizza = $30 ║
╠═════════╬═════════════════════════════════╬════════════════╣
║ SOMEONE ║ Not want separator between rows ║ 3x pizza = $30 ║
╚═════════╩═════════════════════════════════╩════════════════╝

"

-- 
Jean

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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 12:29 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com [2022-11-08 10:58]:
> 
> > You should consider the possibility when someone does not want a
> > separator between rows. For instance I did like the idea of
> > introducing a separator with "|--\n")
> 
> 
> Sure.
> 
> (rcd-box-table '(("SEPINT" "Introducing separator |--" "3x pizza = $30")
> ("SOMEONE" "Not want separator between rows" "3x pizza = $30"))
> '("SKU" "Description" "Amount")
> '("center" "center" "right")) ⇒ "
> ╔═════════╦═════════════════════════════════╦════════════════╗
> ║ SKU ║ Description ║ Amount ║
> ╠═════════╬═════════════════════════════════╬════════════════╣
> ║ SEPINT ║ Introducing separator |-- ║ 3x pizza = $30 ║
> ╠═════════╬═════════════════════════════════╬════════════════╣
> ║ SOMEONE ║ Not want separator between rows ║ 3x pizza = $30 ║
> ╚═════════╩═════════════════════════════════╩════════════════╝
> 
> "

Jean, could you help me make a table?

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jude DaShiell]

I examined the first table and the border character in all cases was
spoken as a ? in the screen reader I use.  Easy enough to understand.



Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022, Heime wrote:

>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 6:39 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>
>
> > Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables:
> > https://hyperscope.link/7/3/9/8/1/Emacs-Lisp-rcd-box-el-package-for-table-drawings-73981.html
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '(("Transport to Makindye" 1 20.00)
> > ("Mobile charges" 1 2000))
> > '("Description" "Quantity" "Subtotal")
> > '("left" "center" "right")) ? "
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ? Description ? Quantity ? Subtotal ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ? Transport to Makindye ? 1 ? 20.0 ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ? Mobile charges ? 1 ? 2000 ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> >
> > "
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3))) ? "
> > ?????????????
> > ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ?
> > ?????????????
> >
> > "
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello"))) ? "
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> > ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ? Hello ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> >
> > "
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil "center") ? "
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> > ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ? Hello ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> >
> > "
> >
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '((1 2 3 "Hello")) nil '("left" "right" "right" "center")) ? "
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> > ? 1 ? 2 ? 3 ? Hello ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????
> >
> > "
> >
> > Major bug is that cell width is currently calculated by the
> > longest cell length. Later I will calculcate it by column.
> >
> > I also wish to add the FOOTER option that may include functions
> > to calculate column values.
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '(("Good bye for now"))) ? "
> > ????????????????????
> > ? Good bye for now ?
> > ????????????????????
> >
> > "
>
> You should consider the possibility when someone does not want a separator between rows.
> For instance I did like the idea of introducing a separator with "|--\n")
>
>

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> > That's also how it works, unless I misunderstand what
> > you mean.
>
> He means like this:
>
>   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/bike/TIRE

Then "yes" my posted function can print such tables.

Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Heime]

------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 4:12 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Heime wrote:
> 
> > (setq y (1- y))
> 
> 
> (cl-decf y)

You are nitpicking on something that is not important.  Fancy helping me with this
struggle I am having?  I am using some code Jean has written to print a table.

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-08 18:30]:
> Jean, could you help me make a table?

Try describing details.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-08 18:42]:
> I examined the first table and the border character in all cases was
> spoken as a ? in the screen reader I use.  Easy enough to understand.

Question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark, question
mark, question mark.

I can imagine.

But how I see that, your system did not recognize those Unicode
characters. It should skip such characters.

Screen readers are not perfect.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Jean Louis]

* Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> [2022-11-08 19:08]:
> You are nitpicking on something that is not important.  Fancy helping me with this
> struggle I am having?  I am using some code Jean has written to print a table.

Show example of your table, make it by hand.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

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Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Michael Heerdegen]

Heime <heimeborgia@protonmail.com> writes:

> Have been focusing on this implementation.  But I have to gen rid of the 
> split-string part in mapconcat.

Why?

> Have found that I can use seq-mapn to iterate over two sequences
> simultaneously.  Then use mapconcat to make the string, and use y
> (from the selectr sequence) as a counter in the function
> argument. There exists the convenient "prog1" that makes it possible
> to lower the counter after the "if" form, but return the value of the
> "if" form (the first function in the prog1 body).

Anyway, nice to see that you are making good progress.

Michael.

Re: Elisp Reference Manual on inserting tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Heime wrote:

>>> (setq y (1- y))
>> 
>> (cl-decf y)
>
> You are nitpicking on something that is not important.

Maybe an example would make it more clear ...

> Fancy helping me with this struggle I am having?

Try this:

(let ((heine 1))
  (cl-decf heine) )

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

>>> Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables [...]
>> 
>> Trapped in a box
>> I'm not alone
>> I know of others
>> with a box as their home ...
>> 
>> ╔═══════════════════════╗
>> ║ Very impressive, Jean ║
>> ╚═══════════════════════╝
>
> (rcd-box-table '(("Monday" "Brännvins Sill" "Senapssill" "Löksill")
> 		 ("Tuesday" "Kottbular" "Kottbular" "Kottbullar")
> 		 ("Wednesday" "Brännvins Sill" "Senapssill" "Löksill"))
> 	       '("" "Morning" "Lunch" "Dinner") 
> 	       "center") [...]
> ╔════════════════╦════════════════╦════════════════╦════════════════╗
> ║                ║    Morning     ║     Lunch      ║     Dinner     ║
> ╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
> ║     Monday     ║ Brännvins Sill ║   Senapssill   ║    Löksill     ║
> ╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
> ║    Tuesday     ║   Kottbular    ║   Kottbular    ║   Kottbullar   ║
> ╠════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╬════════════════╣
> ║   Wednesday    ║ Brännvins Sill ║   Senapssill   ║    Löksill     ║
> ╚════════════════╩════════════════╩════════════════╩════════════════╝

Ha :D

Should put that on the fridge :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jude DaShiell]

Could it be those characters got converted to ? so screen reader users
would be able to recognize a table or box drawing rather than show nothing
except text?



Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022, Jean Louis wrote:

> * Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-08 18:42]:
> > I examined the first table and the border character in all cases was
> > spoken as a ? in the screen reader I use.  Easy enough to understand.
>
> Question mark, question mark, question mark, question mark, question
> mark, question mark.
>
> I can imagine.
>
> But how I see that, your system did not recognize those Unicode
> characters. It should skip such characters.
>
> Screen readers are not perfect.
>
>

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-09 06:34]:
> Could it be those characters got converted to ? so screen reader
> users would be able to recognize a table or box drawing rather than
> show nothing except text?

Can't know that.

Those characters are like this one ┓ and they are called box drawing
characters.


-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> Those characters are like this one ┓ and they are called box
> drawing characters.

That one, ┓, is called "box drawings heavy down and left",
old name "forms heavy down and left".

;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*-
;;
;; this file:
;;   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/char.el

(defun what-char (&optional pos)
  (interactive "P")
  (let*((position (or (and (numberp pos) pos)
                      (point) ))
        (kill pos)
        (char (char-after position)) )
    (when char
      (let*((name     (get-char-code-property char 'name))
            (old-name (get-char-code-property char 'old-name))
            (msg (if (and name old-name)
                     (format "%s (old: %s)" name old-name)
                   (or name old-name) ))
            (msg-dc (when (stringp msg)
                      (downcase msg) )))
        (when msg-dc
          (prog1 msg-dc
            (when kill
              (kill-new msg-dc) )
            (message "%s (at point: %d)" msg-dc position) ))))))

;; (what-char)                  ; "space"
;; (what-char 754)              ; "right parenthesis (old: closing parenthesis)"
;; C-u 754 M-x what-char RET    ; same, but also killed
;; C-u M-x what-char RET* (C-y) ; asterisk is yanked
;; M-x what-char RET            ; line feed (lf) (at point: 1034)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jude DaShiell]

On the screen reader I use, this message only spoke the text that was in
the table.  That for screen reader users is especially useless since yes
there's a table but what is where in that table?  The relationship data
gets stripped in this form.



Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Jean Louis wrote:
>
> >>> Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables [...]
> >>
> >> Trapped in a box
> >> I'm not alone
> >> I know of others
> >> with a box as their home ...
> >>
> >> ?????????????????????????
> >> ? Very impressive, Jean ?
> >> ?????????????????????????
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '(("Monday" "Br?nnvins Sill" "Senapssill" "L?ksill")
> > 		 ("Tuesday" "Kottbular" "Kottbular" "Kottbullar")
> > 		 ("Wednesday" "Br?nnvins Sill" "Senapssill" "L?ksill"))
> > 	       '("" "Morning" "Lunch" "Dinner")
> > 	       "center") [...]
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?                ?    Morning     ?     Lunch      ?     Dinner     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?     Monday     ? Br?nnvins Sill ?   Senapssill   ?    L?ksill     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?    Tuesday     ?   Kottbular    ?   Kottbular    ?   Kottbullar   ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?   Wednesday    ? Br?nnvins Sill ?   Senapssill   ?    L?ksill     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>
> Ha :D
>
> Should put that on the fridge :)
>
>

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jude DaShiell]

For screen reader users printable ascii works.



Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Jean Louis wrote:
>
> >>> Here is my attempt to generate Unicode tables [...]
> >>
> >> Trapped in a box
> >> I'm not alone
> >> I know of others
> >> with a box as their home ...
> >>
> >> ?????????????????????????
> >> ? Very impressive, Jean ?
> >> ?????????????????????????
> >
> > (rcd-box-table '(("Monday" "Br?nnvins Sill" "Senapssill" "L?ksill")
> > 		 ("Tuesday" "Kottbular" "Kottbular" "Kottbullar")
> > 		 ("Wednesday" "Br?nnvins Sill" "Senapssill" "L?ksill"))
> > 	       '("" "Morning" "Lunch" "Dinner")
> > 	       "center") [...]
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?                ?    Morning     ?     Lunch      ?     Dinner     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?     Monday     ? Br?nnvins Sill ?   Senapssill   ?    L?ksill     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?    Tuesday     ?   Kottbular    ?   Kottbular    ?   Kottbullar   ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > ?   Wednesday    ? Br?nnvins Sill ?   Senapssill   ?    L?ksill     ?
> > ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>
> Ha :D
>
> Should put that on the fridge :)
>
>

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Jude DaShiell wrote:

> For screen reader users printable ascii works.

So this is how it is for you?

?????????????????????????
? Very impressive, Jean ?
?????????????????????????

Sure, but it is even fine on my 512K Linux VT so you are even
farther from everyone else, I understand the situation tho, if
it happens often I think I'd automate so that "popular chars"
outside of your range are replaced by others, much like I just
did with Gnus, replacing ʼ with '.

(I think ' is even more popular LOL)

(defun gnus-article-wash-more ()
  (interactive)
  (article-translate-strings
   '(
     ("--8<---------------cut"                     "")
     ("here---------------end--------------->8---" "")
     ("here---------------start------------->8---" "")
     ("Sendt fra min iPad"                         "")
     ("Skickades från E-post för Windows 10"       "")
     ("Skickat från Yahoo Mail för iPhone"         "")
     ("ʼ" "'")
     ))
  (gnus-article-strip-multiple-blank-lines) )

;; (setq gnus-article-prepare-hook nil)
(defun gnus-article-prepare-hook-f ()
  (gnus-with-article-buffer
    (gnus-article-wash-more) ))
(add-hook 'gnus-article-prepare-hook #'gnus-article-prepare-hook-f)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-11-09 15:14]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > Those characters are like this one ┓ and they are called box
> > drawing characters.
> 
> That one, ┓, is called "box drawings heavy down and left",
> old name "forms heavy down and left".
> 
> ;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*-
> ;;
> ;; this file:
> ;;   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/char.el
> 
> (defun what-char (&optional pos)

It is nice non-disturbing visual replacement for M-x describe-char

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-09 18:50]:
> On the screen reader I use, this message only spoke the text that was in
> the table.  That for screen reader users is especially useless since yes
> there's a table but what is where in that table?  The relationship data
> gets stripped in this form.

Is the screen reader software in Emacs?

Or you read e-mails by some other software?

Is it free software?

In case that screen reader is software in Emacs, there would be way to
improve it to avoid reading some characters.

Emacs has those hidden text properties, one can see what it is by
evaluating (buffer-string) so in my opinion, there is way to save the
whole Emacs buffer with text properties, and transfer such to other
person. I know it is not really what we do in practice, but that way
one could transfer also text properties which say "this char is part
of table" and would indicate to screen reader running within Emacs
that such char shall not be read by screen reader.

Then each cell could have it's text property in Emacs buffer. In that
case the spreadsheet with text properties would then be "readable" by
screen reader. Condition is that screen reader knows how to read
tables.

Screenreader could then say something like "Cell A1 with value US
$87.42". Or it could say "Moved to cell A2" or "Moved to cell B3 from
A3".

That makes sense to me.

Sadly we do not have software that generally cooperates with each
other in such way as to provide accessibility to blind.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jude DaShiell]

The screen reader is free software and is espeak-ng.



Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)

.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022, Jean Louis wrote:

> * Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-09 18:50]:
> > On the screen reader I use, this message only spoke the text that was in
> > the table.  That for screen reader users is especially useless since yes
> > there's a table but what is where in that table?  The relationship data
> > gets stripped in this form.
>
> Is the screen reader software in Emacs?
>
> Or you read e-mails by some other software?
>
> Is it free software?
>
> In case that screen reader is software in Emacs, there would be way to
> improve it to avoid reading some characters.
>
> Emacs has those hidden text properties, one can see what it is by
> evaluating (buffer-string) so in my opinion, there is way to save the
> whole Emacs buffer with text properties, and transfer such to other
> person. I know it is not really what we do in practice, but that way
> one could transfer also text properties which say "this char is part
> of table" and would indicate to screen reader running within Emacs
> that such char shall not be read by screen reader.
>
> Then each cell could have it's text property in Emacs buffer. In that
> case the spreadsheet with text properties would then be "readable" by
> screen reader. Condition is that screen reader knows how to read
> tables.
>
> Screenreader could then say something like "Cell A1 with value US
> $87.42". Or it could say "Moved to cell A2" or "Moved to cell B3 from
> A3".
>
> That makes sense to me.
>
> Sadly we do not have software that generally cooperates with each
> other in such way as to provide accessibility to blind.
>
>

Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Jean Louis]

* Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> [2022-11-10 16:14]:
> The screen reader is free software and is espeak-ng.

Now I see that I have it on my Parabola GNU/Linux-libre operating system.

How do you invoke it in Emacs?

-- 
Jean

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In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> That one, ┓, is called "box drawings heavy down and left",
>> old name "forms heavy down and left".
>> 
>> ;; -*- lexical-binding: t -*-
>> ;;
>> ;; this file:
>> ;;   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-init/char.el
>> 
>> (defun what-char (&optional pos)
>
> It is nice non-disturbing visual replacement for M-x describe-char

Ikr?

+1

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

RE: [External] : Re: rcd-box.el for box drawings and tables

[Drew Adams]

> >> https://dataswamp.org/*incal/emacs-init/char.el
> >> (defun what-char (&optional pos)
> >
> > It is nice non-disturbing visual replacement for M-x describe-char
> 
> Ikr? +1

Related:

1. `apu-char-name-at-point', in apu.el.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AproposUnicode

2. Minor mode `mlc-char-in-mode-line-mode',
   in `modeline-char.el'.

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ModeLineCharacterInfo