From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: 27.0.50; Use utf-8 is all our Elisp files Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <3fd27fe5-e650-b207-fdd4-36f805b89b4d@cs.ucla.edu> <83bm5hcroa.fsf@gnu.org> <9f33127d-f01b-b138-7a0c-ffeac7b77938@cs.ucla.edu> <835zvochdj.fsf@gnu.org> <5f113128-36c9-30c6-3413-8dc36051e058@cs.ucla.edu> <83va3nban3.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1545426729 2152 195.159.176.226 (21 Dec 2018 21:12:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 21:12:09 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 Cc: handa@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Emacs Development To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 21 22:12:05 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gaS5V-0000Qf-2L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:12:05 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47880 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gaS7b-0007Oj-HT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:14:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50385) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gaS7V-0007Oa-HO for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:14:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gaS7S-0004w2-Dr for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:14:09 -0500 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48614) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gaS7S-0004vd-5U; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:14:06 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F5A160CF5; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:10 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id wGc1IXwv7xB2; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D3E160CF7; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id kK1rNeFEfo3D; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98BA8160227; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:07:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83va3nban3.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:231948 Archived-At: [removing 33796@debbugs.gnu.org and adding emacs-devel@gnu.org to cc list= ] Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Which markup is not necessary for display, in your opinion? At most all that's useful is markup that distinguishes Chinese and Japane= se=20 variants of Han characters; this might also include hanja (Korean) and Ch= =E1=BB=AF N=C3=B4m=20 (Vietnamese) variants if we ever added such characters to etc/HELLO. Such= markup=20 might be useful because a significant set of east Asian users dislike Uni= code's=20 Han unification and prefer specific variants of Han characters. I'm not a= ware of=20 any other set of users who dislike unification in that way. > That markup is precisely what keeps the charset properties on the > corresponding greetings. Removing it would be losing information that > HELLO is trying to preserve. Although the etc/HELLO markup might be of interest to those who care abou= t=20 annotating languages in the text, it's irrelevant to the ordinary purpose= of=20 that file, which is to show textual translations of "Hello", as examples,= to an=20 audience that doesn't know all those languages, but who can easily see th= e=20 language names in the English (or native-language) parts of the text with= out=20 involving any of the markup. It's a bit like reading a translation of (say) "War and Peace". Most peop= le just=20 want to read the translated text. A small fraction might want to know whi= ch part=20 of the original was written in Russian, which in French, which in English= , etc.=20 Markup can help that small fraction, but just gets in the way of the prim= ary use. > Is it possible that you are looking > at a file/buffer that was modified from its original contents? No, I was using Emacs 26 by mistake. Sorry about the noise. It's still not a good user interface, though, as it is difficult to see t= he=20 markup's effect when visiting etc/HELLO in the usual way, and this makes = it hard=20 to see mistakes in the markup. etc/HELLO is littered with so much useless= =20 markup, and the effect of markup errors is so subtle, and it's so much of= a pain=20 to edit the markup in its ordinary form of display, that the file is not = a good=20 showroom for how to maintain multilingual text. It's not a good sign that= there=20 seem to be errors in the possibly-useful (i.e., CJ) markup that nobody ha= s=20 noticed since the markup was introduced in May, and that I noticed these = errors=20 now only because I was visiting the file literally.