Re: Request: org as minor mode?

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[Jost Burkardt]

... forgot to include emacs-orgmode list on CC

Hi Dominik,

reading this discussion, I just want to throw in something, which is
quite a while on my mind: What about deriving org-mode from the
minor-mode outliner "allout-mode", which provides outlining
capabilities for non-text modes (plus some goodies like encryption of
subtrees). Allout manages the key-binding problem with a standard
prefix `C-c <SPACE>' to all keys plus some hotkeys for quick movement,
when you on a heading. That sounds quite like, what you have explained
for orgtbl-mode.

I'd really like to be able to manage my task directly within my source
files (and have the great tagging available!!!). An other use-case
would be managing task within in a emacs-muse file, like planner-mode
does.

I can imagine, that this would be a major effort, esp. how to handle
keywords, like SCHEDULED, HEADLINE,... (within comments?), but as I
said, I would really like your opinion on this.

Jost


Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:

> Hi Raman
>
> This is a complex question.
>
> Of course one could define a minor mode that contains some of the
> org-mode commands.  The main problem is key bindings.  Major modes
> define their own keys, and I guess you don't want to have the minor
> mode override bindings from the major mode, except under special
> circumstances.
>
> Orgtbl-mode deals with this challange in a special way.  All the keys
> that are acting on tables are bound to a special function.  That
> function first determines if the cursor is inside a table.  If yes,
> the Org-mode table function is executed.  If not, the minor mode is
> deactivated for a moment and the "other" binding of that same key,
> most likely set by the major mode or another minor mode will be
> executed.
>
> I believe you would have to formulate your request much more narrowly:
> What Org-mode functionality would you like to have available in other
> modes?  How should the minor mode decide if which function of a key to
> call.  For example, you could say you mostly want the structure
> editing commands, when the cursor is on a headline or a plain list
> item.
> But others might want the ability to put time stamps, or whatever.
>
> So in order to realize such a minor mode, I would need a clear
> definition.
>
> - Carsten
>
> On Mar 31, 2007, at 23:58, T. V. Raman wrote:
>
>> I've now come to rely heavily on org-mode for too many things --
>> this is of course good.
>>
>> But this is also means that increasingly, I'd like to use
>> org-mode as a minor mode in conjunction with other major
>> modes. Is this possible?
>>
>> org lets you use things like orgtbl or org-cdlatex within
>> org-mode;
>> what I'd like to see is org-mode itself be usable as a minor mode
>> --- in a manner similar to outline-minor-mode.
>>
>> I think this would make things like email composition really
>> convenient -- org-mode is as yet the most convenient means I've
>> found in emacs to write ordered and bulleted lists with a minimal
>> amount of fuss.
>>  Thanks,
>>  --Raman
>>
>> -- 
>> Best Regards,
>> --raman
>>
>>
>> Email:  raman@users.sf.net
>> WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
>> AIM:    emacspeak       GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
>> PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
>> Google: tv+raman
>> IRC:    irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>
> --
> Carsten Dominik
> Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
> Universiteit van Amsterdam
> Kruislaan 403
> NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
> phone: +31 20 525 7477
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[Mike Newman]

On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 08:46:21 +0200
Jost Burkardt <jost.burkardt@web.de> wrote:

> 
> I'd really like to be able to manage my task directly within my source
> files (and have the great tagging available!!!). An other use-case
> would be managing task within in a emacs-muse file, like planner-mode
> does.
> 

One approach to this could be use one of the ways of having multiple
major modes in a single file - see
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/MultipleModes.

Even if Org mode could pick up tasks in source files - would this scale
well with a large number of files?
-- 
Mike

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[Carsten Dominik]

On Apr 3, 2007, at 8:46, Jost Burkardt wrote:

>
> ... forgot to include emacs-orgmode list on CC
>
> Hi Dominik,
>
> reading this discussion, I just want to throw in something, which is
> quite a while on my mind: What about deriving org-mode from the
> minor-mode outliner "allout-mode", which provides outlining
> capabilities for non-text modes (plus some goodies like encryption of
> subtrees).

Not a bad idea, but it is too late for that.  Org-mode is married to
outline-mode, I don't think I could chaange this without re-writing 
large parts.


>  Allout manages the key-binding problem with a standard
> prefix `C-c <SPACE>' to all keys plus some hotkeys for quick movement,
> when you on a heading. That sounds quite like, what you have explained
> for orgtbl-mode.

Yes, a special prefix would do it, but I believe Raman's original
proposal also refers to the ease at which you can make and edit lists, 
and long 4-key-stroke access to commands is annoying.

>
> I'd really like to be able to manage my task directly within my source
> files (and have the great tagging available!!!). An other use-case
> would be managing task within in a emacs-muse file, like planner-mode
> does.

>
> I can imagine, that this would be a major effort, esp. how to handle
> keywords, like SCHEDULED, HEADLINE,... (within comments?), but as I
> said, I would really like your opinion on this.

Well, if we had a minor mode that would be possible, but when
applied to source code it would require a language with block
comments.  Making it work in comments where the first character of each 
line is a special comment character, that would be too hard.

Also, with many source files, building the agenda or TODO list
would read all those files into emacs, and it would be slow.

- Carsten

Request: org as minor mode?

[T. V. Raman]

I've now come to rely heavily on org-mode for too many things --
this is of course good.

But this is also means that increasingly, I'd like to use
org-mode as a minor mode in conjunction with other major
modes. Is this possible?

org lets you use things like orgtbl or org-cdlatex within
org-mode; 
what I'd like to see is org-mode itself be usable as a minor mode
--- in a manner similar to outline-minor-mode.

I think this would make things like email composition really
convenient -- org-mode is as yet the most convenient means I've
found in emacs to write ordered and bulleted lists with a minimal
amount of fuss.
 Thanks, 
 --Raman

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      
Email:  raman@users.sf.net
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
AIM:    emacspeak       GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Google: tv+raman 
IRC:    irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[Denis Bueno]

On 3/31/07, T. V. Raman <raman@users.sf.net> wrote:
> I've now come to rely heavily on org-mode for too many things --
> this is of course good.
>
> But this is also means that increasingly, I'd like to use
> org-mode as a minor mode in conjunction with other major
> modes. Is this possible?
>
> org lets you use things like orgtbl or org-cdlatex within
> org-mode;

There is of course:

  org-cdlatex-mode
  Command: Toggle the minor `org-cdlatex-mode'.

  orgtbl-mode
  Command: The `org-mode' table editor as a minor mode for use in other modes.

-Denis

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Raman

This is a complex question.

Of course one could define a minor mode that contains some of the 
org-mode commands.  The main problem is key bindings.  Major modes 
define their own keys, and I guess you don't want to have the minor 
mode override bindings from the major mode, except under special 
circumstances.

Orgtbl-mode deals with this challange in a special way.  All the keys 
that are acting on tables are bound to a special function.  That 
function first determines if the cursor is inside a table.  If yes, the 
Org-mode table function is executed.  If not, the minor mode is 
deactivated for a moment and the "other" binding of that same key, most 
likely set by the major mode or another minor mode will be executed.

I believe you would have to formulate your request much more narrowly:  
What Org-mode functionality would you like to have available in other 
modes?  How should the minor mode decide if which function of a key to 
call.  For example, you could say you mostly want the structure editing 
commands, when the cursor is on a headline or a plain list item.
But others might want the ability to put time stamps, or whatever.

So in order to realize such a minor mode, I would need a clear 
definition.

- Carsten

On Mar 31, 2007, at 23:58, T. V. Raman wrote:

> I've now come to rely heavily on org-mode for too many things --
> this is of course good.
>
> But this is also means that increasingly, I'd like to use
> org-mode as a minor mode in conjunction with other major
> modes. Is this possible?
>
> org lets you use things like orgtbl or org-cdlatex within
> org-mode;
> what I'd like to see is org-mode itself be usable as a minor mode
> --- in a manner similar to outline-minor-mode.
>
> I think this would make things like email composition really
> convenient -- org-mode is as yet the most convenient means I've
> found in emacs to write ordered and bulleted lists with a minimal
> amount of fuss.
>  Thanks,
>  --Raman
>
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
>
>
> Email:  raman@users.sf.net
> WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
> AIM:    emacspeak       GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
> PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
> Google: tv+raman
> IRC:    irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>

--
Carsten Dominik
Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
Universiteit van Amsterdam
Kruislaan 403
NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
phone: +31 20 525 7477

Re: Request: org as minor mode?

[T. V. Raman]

Hi,

so to narrow down the definition, I'm primarily looking for the
ability to edit and manipulate structure -- which is why I
picture it as an extension/enhancement to the existing
outline-minor-mode functionality in emacs.

In some sense, when you implemented org, you built on top of
outline-mode;
one  way to achieve what I'm asking for might be to now take
those parts of org that are structure-oriented and successful and
move them back into outline-mode.

The other possibility -- --- let's push the issue of key bindings
on the stack for a minute ---
would be to implement the minor mode, and provide a
org-mode-prefix that users can bind to  a key. For instance I
might bind this to hyper-o in my environment.


>>>>> "Carsten" == Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
    Carsten> Hi Raman This is a complex question.
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> Of course one could define a minor mode that
    Carsten> contains some of the org-mode commands.  The main
    Carsten> problem is key bindings.  Major modes define their
    Carsten> own keys, and I guess you don't want to have the
    Carsten> minor mode override bindings from the major mode,
    Carsten> except under special circumstances.
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> Orgtbl-mode deals with this challange in a special
    Carsten> way.  All the keys that are acting on tables are
    Carsten> bound to a special function.  That function first
    Carsten> determines if the cursor is inside a table.  If yes,
    Carsten> the Org-mode table function is executed.  If not,
    Carsten> the minor mode is deactivated for a moment and the
    Carsten> "other" binding of that same key, most likely set by
    Carsten> the major mode or another minor mode will be
    Carsten> executed.
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> I believe you would have to formulate your request
    Carsten> much more narrowly: What Org-mode functionality
    Carsten> would you like to have available in other modes?
    Carsten> How should the minor mode decide if which function
    Carsten> of a key to call.  For example, you could say you
    Carsten> mostly want the structure editing commands, when the
    Carsten> cursor is on a headline or a plain list item.  But
    Carsten> others might want the ability to put time stamps, or
    Carsten> whatever.
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> So in order to realize such a minor mode, I would
    Carsten> need a clear definition.
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> - Carsten
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> On Mar 31, 2007, at 23:58, T. V. Raman wrote:
    Carsten> 
    >> I've now come to rely heavily on org-mode for too many
    >> things -- this is of course good.
    >> 
    >> But this is also means that increasingly, I'd like to use
    >> org-mode as a minor mode in conjunction with other major
    >> modes. Is this possible?
    >> 
    >> org lets you use things like orgtbl or org-cdlatex within
    >> org-mode; what I'd like to see is org-mode itself be
    >> usable as a minor mode --- in a manner similar to
    >> outline-minor-mode.
    >> 
    >> I think this would make things like email composition
    >> really convenient -- org-mode is as yet the most
    >> convenient means I've found in emacs to write ordered and
    >> bulleted lists with a minimal amount of fuss.  Thanks,
    >> --Raman
    >> 
    >> -- 
    >> Best Regards, --raman
    >> 
    >> 
    >> Email: raman@users.sf.net WWW:
    >> http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/ AIM: emacspeak GTalk:
    >> tv.raman.tv@gmail.com PGP:
    >> http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc Google:
    >> tv+raman IRC: irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs
    >> 
    >> 
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
    >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
    >> 
    >> 
    Carsten> 
--
Carsten Dominik Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
    Carsten> Universiteit van Amsterdam Kruislaan 403 NL-1098SJ
    Carsten> Amsterdam phone: +31 20 525 7477
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> 
    Carsten> _______________________________________________
    Carsten> Emacs-orgmode mailing list Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
    Carsten> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      
Email:  raman@users.sf.net
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
AIM:    emacspeak       GTalk: tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Google: tv+raman 
IRC:    irc://irc.freenode.net/#emacs