From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <83y3bc2378.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1538780660 13936 195.159.176.226 (5 Oct 2018 23:04:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 23:04:20 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 06 01:04:15 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8Z8o-0003U0-6g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 01:04:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37208 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8ZAu-0001F9-Nw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:06:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50310) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8ZAl-00017t-48 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:06:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8Z6v-00086w-Bx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:02:19 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:54126) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8Z6q-00084H-JX; Fri, 05 Oct 2018 19:02:12 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FBC161751; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Be63GNxUo1zH; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCD6161747; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id s_SdiPnjlR2O; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1DE9161751; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECH In-Reply-To: <83y3bc2378.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:230240 Archived-At: On 10/5/18 1:43 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > the commonly accepted mechanism of > pointing out potentially wrong constructs is by visual cues and > warning messages If we decide that Elisp source code must be able to abuse confusable characters, then of course we should allow such abuse and support it as best we can, including selective highlighting and whatnot to try to warn readers of the abuse. Such support won't work outside Emacs, but people using non-Emacs programs to look at Elisp code will simply be out of luck. However, that would be heading in the wrong direction, because we shouldn't assume that Elisp code is reviewed only via Emacs. I regularly use Savannah's web interface to look at Elisp source code diffs, for example, and there's lots of other ways I and other developers use non-Emacs programs to look at Elisp source. Because reading source code is an essential property of free software, and because it would set a bad precedent if we said or implied that one really should use only Emacs to read Elisp code, we can't sufficiently address the problem merely by highlighting characters when Emacs is viewing them in a certain way and saying or implying that people should use only Emacs to review Elisp code. I'm not arguing that Elisp should prohibit symbols from containing confusing characters, only that these characters should be easily recognizable in plain-text source code, without requiring Emacs itself (configured a certain way) to view the source. For example, if we required a backslash before every confusable character in a symbol, that would go a long way toward addressing the problem.