From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "paul r" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:11:40 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <001f01c88dee$b7d48430$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206400314 12702 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 23:11:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:11:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Chong Yidong , Stefan Monnier , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Sascha Wilde" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 25 00:12:24 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jdvq3-0000qn-Gh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:12:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdvpS-0007bN-Dy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:11:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdvpO-0007b1-KI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:11:42 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdvpO-0007am-5u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:11:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdvpO-0007aj-30 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:11:42 -0400 Original-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.153]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdvpN-0002aA-Qy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:11:42 -0400 Original-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so2937086fga.30 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:11:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Z9+4z6fa9B2f/ayp6kB1jsBBW4lHw9OPavtz641s1dM=; b=OF9byEYadJXcxXw2SuYvwpxfj29g0UpVhuuaXmyNkv7+KSCw8ZGDc7UTOc1RtNIdgT5vK54uOR/8vpo51eEz4RUIKvwmwFdzRs+VYalDo8jVGUaRGrVMzzi2HcA2LYxko2pxLWGMLe8E+y9j/5lrksPGGggMQD1vXEvU/iCLyI0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=YPmjUCmfA4H23LSfYMYaGcsu5x2bNQboD8AZdLOuvVY/ghxMhonoCaX1WHCRx25VOVBz1r2oSFGPthhzpJZ7hYoeN/b6pSDHaaI03TDwkmCCALZGxd+s77a+hGAsoahjNI/7DDMMQpIHc+4u4xePpK6aoH1aAfBz70US3LTsT14= Original-Received: by 10.82.167.9 with SMTP id p9mr19017971bue.7.1206400300575; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.82.175.3 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:11:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93346 Archived-At: 2008/3/24, Sascha Wilde : > To be honest: I don't care to much about that kind of people. There is > a fair amount of software out there to suit there (limited?) needs -- > please don't try to make Emacs just another one of these. > > I like Emacs for being driven by "doing the right thing" and by that > aiming to become the perfect tool from hackers for hackers[0]. > > By all means: educate those who are willing to learn: don't make it > unnecessarily hard for them and point them in the right direction, > e.g. by pointing out that customization is crucial to make Emacs > "yours". > > But _pretty please_ don't choose the defaults on what joe average > programmers would expect. My point of view is that newbies are precious resource in any project, and neglecting them is dangerous. For many reasons, emacs would benefit from having a greater number of beginners and casual users. They are the connection between inside hackers and the outside world [1]. A lot of things happen outside emacs world, RMS had an interesting post about that recently. Another point is that newbies tend to spend a lot of time expressing what they like or not like on any project, and more generally discussing about choices of software. That way, they maintain a dynamic activity visible from people that do not know emacs yet. Finally, their point of view might be biased by common software practices, but at least it is not biased by many many years of emacs-only usage :) I do not see any serious threat to have emacs turned into a notepad, an eclipse, a gedit or a kate, just because its default settings make it more accessible to the mere mortal. -- Paul [1] btw, in this world, people start counting from 1, not from 0 ;)