From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "paul r" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:40:24 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <87zlsouef7.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206391254 11023 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 20:40:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Sascha Wilde" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 21:41:24 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JdtTi-00059e-HI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:41:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtT7-0005sk-I7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtT3-0005oR-Gq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:29 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtT2-0005n9-Ut for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdtT2-0005n0-RH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:28 -0400 Original-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.158]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdtT2-0000sl-0p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:40:28 -0400 Original-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id d23so2888806fga.30 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:40:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=HEAEYi4fksVqihxJL+W/1ntMdEGkTCLNohphCJQh1hE=; b=R+Q6pzvQb3C3UIXxDKrzyubzz8f4CqFVLhXddV2Xejx3IL01MIOhZCmlxisrGmW/uH+KC52Luf0tIZL6lrgeJqdojuMszs/5XJO7jrn7CYSwUPvP8GRhU9YpPlgGN0OnB1QOS8WzGFNCs6PnCzf8zyfxUEzVF79KCqYF+yc3iII= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dj0hFib/f64hn5WcD6zxk7wA/tPBcyndI1uRCqHZmghKu0ssfg8wMGPf4z43WQIXqBAJCi5s4tKGZVlepspQhCAQ95HdRa7uVOQ/ekx1YQnksa621WNyX67IM904modGvgHK7kazuBJqbGwatyop80SnAURUBKXU59vW7t3QdZI= Original-Received: by 10.82.118.2 with SMTP id q2mr18576531buc.27.1206391224767; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.82.175.3 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:40:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93329 Archived-At: 2008/3/24, Sascha Wilde : > Further more, I recall from my newbie times, that being forced to look > at the manual for some rather basic features I expected from an editor > like Emacs to have, actually helped me, as it made me come across some > of the less obvious features early. I really agree, because I had the same experience. On the other hand, 5 years ago, I got really frustrated beginning on emacs, so much that I gave up. I came back to it 2 years later, because someone pushed me, gave me its .emacs, helped me to get hands on. I think this, really, is a fundamental question : "On what criterion should we choose defaults ?" Here are some of my thoughts : - pushing educational ambition in default settings, really, is a big mistake. You want to educate, so improve tutorial, improve documentation, make more interactive tutorials. But do *not* deliberately harden the way for beginners. - It should *never* be a target make the default set so that gurus here can minimize the size of their .emacs, ideally having a void .emacs. Beginners should be comfortable using emacs, even with a void .emacs. Not advanced users. - never compromise the wonderfull ability of emacs to be fully customizable ( I do not worry too much about this one ;) What are yours ? Regards, -- Paul