From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Tweaking t-m-m to make room for d-s-m Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:30:46 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87sk7pzqsp.fsf@ambire.localdomain> <8739zps45s.fsf@mean.albasani.net> <87mxxw6c7b.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20100326092833.19294vuz9efv5qg4@webmail.mnet-online.de> <33DBCF2DFF71401DB0861E66EC29ED2B@us.oracle.com> <5F1D87251C98412EADC1187ABFCC3E8D@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269639295 11129 80.91.229.12 (26 Mar 2010 21:34:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:34:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: mathias@mnet-mail.de, David Kastrup , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 26 22:34:50 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvHB0-00088k-94 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:34:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42529 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvHAy-0005pU-0f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:34:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NvHAo-0005nk-AK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:34:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=48381 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NvHAm-0005Mb-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:34:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvH7T-0001pe-Lc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:31:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f224.google.com ([209.85.220.224]:48450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NvH7T-0001pM-FC; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:31:07 -0400 Original-Received: by fxm24 with SMTP id 24so25540fxm.26 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:31:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:received:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=xo7FrbWGZutYeU2GSUYsgo2CGVx/ohCIOEpUI4H9YLY=; b=pl/ZvzwyS6XevL4dmCSYFJAxKZ34SxvN8P0d3pKDWbhY8bSvjmUVEnuFDnzHJex1uG w3dR/H2nKmhO3PwholtTmYkP4SMi3mgyFfvfoK8nR2tKYz2aZWZZBj39ByEktEsUHzZA Q8HU/HgWE6cBrjAlvG1sekoKPlngo+KWAbKfk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=fO6FRFKESPUHeLmIWFdtswB7PiPbxunJSWTCX9BOzS41VcgBfiJVah+Aw3+EHZrMx9 ZS3ljs0YwBeaaysAJlYo7tkvd9W0/iUnL6/Mf1UzBc2gBsSDMWwLjqZ0dutCZmAtS33D 23uJNjmg/zsQCMPT3z/1CrCrN4QZiP5/VU0rQ= Original-Received: by 10.239.141.72 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:30:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5F1D87251C98412EADC1187ABFCC3E8D@us.oracle.com> Original-Received: by 10.239.166.195 with SMTP id c3mr133042hbe.57.1269639066130; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:31:06 -0700 (PDT) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122729 Archived-At: On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> >> Couldn't C-x SPC be used to activate the region (without changing >> >> point and mark)? It seems unused and is easier to type then >> >> Alan's suggestion. -- Mathias >> > >> > C-z >> >> I think that would be a very bad idea since C-z seems to be used as >> undo in most editing environments. > > And C-z is currently `suspend-frame' in Emacs. And you have said this is not an important use since there are alternative key bindings. > CUA is so very different from Emacs that I see no need to consider such > conflicts. Emacs does not sync with CUA's C-c, C-x, C-v, ESC,... Why should we > treat CUA's C-z with special respect? It is new users that should be treated with respect. All of them know these key bindings. All of them use them. (If they are not computer illiterates.) > Arguments that Emacs should do something by default _only_ because vi (e.g. > Viper) or CUA does it are non-starters, with me at least. The vim community has accepted them. To me that means that they (as a community) have accepted that they are important. Emacs has not accepted them. I fairly certain the problem is backward compatibility in Emacs. Nothing else at all. (Of course backward compatibility is important but it is not the whole story.) But I do not expect CUA keys to be accepted now, I just want to avoid adding new troubles. Using C-z for something new (except `undo') would be new trouble IMO. > There is a logic behind the CUA keys, yes. Those who came up with CUA didn't do > so without thought. But it is a logic that takes as its starting point that the > set of editing operations is just about summed up by those few operations: cut, > copy, paste, undo. Under such an assumption it is not a bad idea to put all of > those frequently used operations together within easy reach. > > But Emacs's use of keyboard keys blows the "half-dozen editing operations" > scenario out of the water. I would rather say it looks like CUA blows Emacs out of the water ;-) But that is not what I want. > AFAICS, the _only_ reason for Emacs to conform to CUA > would be to have a better fit with the outside world. For me, that is not a > sufficient reason. If you just say "conform" you may miss the essentials of it. It is about user convenience, not about some strictness called "conform" or "better fit".