From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode (was: Put scroll-bar on right by defaultonUNIX.) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:09:21 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20100318185435.GB1522@muc.de> <20100319092300.GA1580@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268998501 10785 80.91.229.12 (19 Mar 2010 11:35:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:35:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juri Linkov , Dan Nicolaescu , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Drew Adams To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 19 12:34:54 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsaTb-0000MF-Rw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:34:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52691 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsaTb-0005da-9S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:34:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsa5J-0003wR-DS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:09:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=37759 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nsa5H-0003vp-6q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:09:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nsa5F-0000M2-OM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:09:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f210.google.com ([209.85.220.210]:40510) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nsa5F-0000Hh-Ja for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:09:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-fx0-f210.google.com with SMTP id 2so429546fxm.26 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:09:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tMkGc5rY0BJj/Tf2uKYJw3SSAEGiPPrlG0Q0gYQdZvY=; b=Os4kWkzkCLXQ7kOzBNCgKZl9VhWFw2cECvJyiB8ybf1vYLd/y7BJpu6JfJoVkjZebf 75gET+fDyUgi6fPHRDv/hjAk9ApCLdeTbOe9n2X25VHcsXhsA3Nsep1sdXh5ffJGUFA6 Sv16WXiLQ0PJBX61dGJ61J+33x5MxEA7S+eHo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j0oxv2IfW81+AoVCNc0MISo+fAOqxfA1lucTMnN+RRCRG4tI9e+cxXD7BdP6Ie5fR5 xzuX2AxccV40msFjVsuXduA59NO1ZqxNA6MxR1kW5cLqubE755R4gFOII6RhQh4lOoNC pkspVUolV3fwpWDE67cBhiYJdH5Qto67/wE1w= Original-Received: by 10.239.177.77 with SMTP id u13mr648377hbf.96.1268996981129; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:09:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100319092300.GA1580@muc.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122270 Archived-At: Hi Alan, On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > We're talking about the DEFAULT version here. Yes. > I've just spoken to my sister, an "ordinary" computer user. =C2=A0She say= s > she normally uses the key after marking text before typing > further. =C2=A0She also gets annoyed "every now and then" when marked tex= t > gets accidentally deleted by typing, though "it's not too bad" if > there's an undo key sequence. Yes, that is normal today since that is how it works during most of the editing people do today. You have to be in a special editing environment for it not to work and most people are never in such environments today. So for most people there are no exceptions to this. I believe you have to be a "low level" programmer to ever be in those special environments. Most people are not programmers. And most programmers are not low level programmers. And Emacs are used also by people that are not programmers. > You and a few others, so as to save a single key > easy press ( or C-w) want to heap massive inconvenience on others. Not a few. All non-Emacs users (and they are a majority) are used to that typing a character when text is selected will replace a visible region/selection. Whatever the arguments are I believe we will/must move in a direction that makes it easier for newcomers. They are used to beeing able to immediately using a new application. They meet new applications on the web all the time. If some application on the web does not work immediately they frown upon it as stupid. > `self-insert-command' will have state dependent behaviour. =C2=A0It won't > JUST work anymore - it will have side effects. Yes. And that is probably what most experienced newcomers expect because it works that way - today. > d-s-m makes an active region a fragile region. =C2=A0It is this fragility > which causes all the pain. =C2=A0Please address this issue. Don't you think the way to go is to make suggestions that can both move us towards the common defaults and do what you think is best for old-timers? > That is mere hand waving, not evidence. Don't you think we need creativity, not evidence here? > Who says that people outside Emacs use this rule much? =C2=A0My sister > doesn't. Experienced user might do it more. > What, more state? =C2=A0No thanks! =C2=A0Either silence it or not. =C2=A0= I'd say > silence it altogether. If we do not use defaults that newcomers are used to, will we not impose a new stat on them instead?