From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode (was: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:30:47 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268854296 4697 80.91.229.12 (17 Mar 2010 19:31:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:31:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juri Linkov , Chong Yidong , Dan Nicolaescu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 17 20:31:30 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nryxd-0002oj-BU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:31:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51396 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nryxc-0003Kf-Mg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:31:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NryxW-0003I9-89 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:31:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=60732 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NryxU-0003Fv-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:31:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NryxR-0001Mz-Od for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:31:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-fx0-f210.google.com ([209.85.220.210]:36321) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NryxR-0001Me-Ec for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:31:09 -0400 Original-Received: by fxm2 with SMTP id 2so1486902fxm.26 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1NBTGTQaGktV43KpPbzKHUtkniSEXt8gWh5K7voeOCc=; b=VzHmFVvjmqpSRYy0jVBS5bL9ZrBahew1XjqajnNMxoF6Jml2Z4bsEZgriOYdT5WQzQ yhXa1TqN3cEPrLvl4hMObgOc2S1yLfR5GMUabKIXBnr20xXYnCzoNm7KD5qleF3/R08s wYD4X4ilfcJOGidX86TkQBIDm8mN+UZ55TSVI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=G9uUh1x0KYJWlRcxvDaQt1Ca60fFZ8y28lhpOAzT1edhw9vkBM2hshLQ8Q1V7wYKc3 pChe0tGVrMcHhNzXGf/y/mVZmFMQaSurfwBaKwgz/cgl0Nd3mq7gPdzb3YUc/kGUdiN/ PChmIgkW4X/Xsi9GGocJV91OARLUUvcolOLX0= Original-Received: by 10.239.190.19 with SMTP id v19mr1271329hbh.171.1268854267173; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122102 Archived-At: Hi Alan, On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >> I agree with Richard that the primary concern is doing what is useful >> for newcomers. > > You have misconstrued Richard's post. =C2=A0He went on to say that what i= s > useful for newcomers isn't necessarily what they expect or "want". > There's thus no indication there that he would support the rest of your > argument. Juri can of course be correct too when he interpret this basic part of RMS message. You can also be that. However I see no reason why Juri can't argue that way. > The answer is to ask them why they want this. Have not that been done many, many times - in the context of Emacs and in research on user-computer interaction. As far as I understand the answer is that new users most often want it to behave as they are used to from other applications. They want that exactly because it saves them time and avoids confusion (which also costs them time). I for one agree with that argument. > C-w is easy to type, as is . It is of course not about "easy to type". > delete-select-mode is such an irritating distraction that it > should only be enabled for those who really, truly want it. I am glad you care. Of course for those who thinks it is disturbing it should be turned off. But those are not the newcomers as far as I can see. > Emacs is > rare amongst editing software in that it imposes very few irritations on > users in its default mode of operation. You might have forgotten a negation somewhere. Emacs is well known for beeing difficult for most beginners. And one reason is that it does not follow usual defaults where it could have done so. You may think this is a small problem, but I do not. Adding a lot of small differences makes each one of them much harder for the beginner. > No. =C2=A0We do not want to send Emacs down the slippery slope towards lo= west > common denominator editors. =C2=A0We want to encourage Emacs users to use > Emacs efficiently, taking advantage of its many features. =C2=A0What you = are > proposing would have the opposite effect. We all care about efficiency. Where we differ is what we think is efficient= . > We've had this discussion often enough in the past. =C2=A0Do we really ha= ve to > go through these motions yet again? As long as Emacs does not disappear and attracts some new users it will pop up. I can see no way to avoid that.