From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs for new users Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:40:54 +0100 Message-ID: References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@mail.gmail.com> <6E092AF13796494BADEBCE2C5C0361CE@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1259092045 23929 80.91.229.12 (24 Nov 2009 19:47:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:47:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: per@starback.se, rms@gnu.org, Stephen Eilert , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 24 20:47:17 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1ND1M2-0005ZW-51 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:47:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34283 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1M1-0008R9-OI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:47:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1GT-0003hm-58 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:41:29 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1GO-0003dL-7h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:41:28 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=38296 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ND1GO-0003d3-0t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:41:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yx0-f191.google.com ([209.85.210.191]:53611) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1ND1GM-0007aG-W1; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:41:23 -0500 Original-Received: by yxe29 with SMTP id 29so17914028yxe.14 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:41:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=oTfaLxp1/Z6YAb0lFcZwufhKFH8J89XaUa77LpkhfM4=; b=iHvPd8AtuhcBd/elPx5mpFKdl0gKqpwKB0LffNFbTNIKmXkVeWWj4VOVFC0IFVRH6f Y7NJnY4IPDz+02G53jMSGDFRjSt0uUPPXRswr4N4b7tV66dmk32VAZt4kmMUJYeFRiQI vkaE2M+acMF4qRgjFQXuadLuu8eQOCHgxadVM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=Z96OTGhBPPK3STsrUJNkTN89E6mZNwt38M7cqQHNdPTwkM/nILQWL8tTJN2+Zmp4+m pn+vLUsQwsXd9dS+ccIihCVMHFzwawhSb/itw11ptVw7zjSitAV2xTzWKZtdIdKC7G1J xgi3xE8KXuAw7uusgcBYSIn0qWUi+rBJNxalM= Original-Received: by 10.101.149.3 with SMTP id b3mr5124336ano.115.1259091674135; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:41:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:117703 Archived-At: On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > > Maybe. (How do they know what they want or need wrt _learning Emacs_?) > > But is that what we want for them? Who is in a better position to design Emacs > to help new users, new users themselves or people familiar with Emacs (and with > new-user reports)? > > Someone with no experience of Emacs might have certain expectations and a > certain idea of text editing. But those expectations and that idea do not > necessarily correspond to what Emacs is or to how best to use Emacs. We discussed this at length some years ago. My point is that it is much easier to learn something if the complexity is not to high at the moment. (It should not be too low either.) Compare games like Brain Workshop for example. You actually seem to train your brain into a better mode with it. Some people get incredible results (at least to my standards) and I believe that comes from that the complexity is just a little bit more than they can do. Not more. Not less. Is not Emacs after all meant to be a brain exercise? ;-)