From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Menu commands to M-x history? Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:53:59 +0200 Message-ID: References: <9D1E3CE97BF4491E973F872B00D6277D@us.oracle.com> <916D7A0558D14A809114127E47A21BB2@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1248728137 21402 80.91.229.12 (27 Jul 2009 20:55:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:55:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Mathias Dahl To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 27 22:55:29 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MVXEH-0005Iu-6l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:55:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44215 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MVXEG-0006XO-NJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:55:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MVXCx-0004hs-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:54:07 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MVXCs-0004cY-FP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:54:06 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58068 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MVXCs-0004cF-7e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:54:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-gx0-f206.google.com ([209.85.217.206]:64975) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MVXCq-0007dc-By; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:54:00 -0400 Original-Received: by gxk2 with SMTP id 2so6143874gxk.7 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:53:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c5JpqWxQqP0FmSi1BAvpu4Z5pz4+85PG7Rjx3qXEYtg=; b=vPkP2lfdS5UtWKNMD0cKM6c0fpXDDji69mBuxf27l2lFehpGAhRe1lI7n21awhhN8U SGP9H0WzSuCI0JLoGOtiSRaIllniDZUmYMoZZU8pvk0xjExvjnUsyUGBpt1psU4U4o8s 57NMmc7ZQq64Fa7S/nLv8nwlaJ+YdgNx9+rE0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WeQcjrZp7YOTkStE1UQEw9ieZsphtviuc0fY/p3b//L5QTCcOqqQQkDMykVJXxm5e8 zt++Ocs0orpGUibzNnSY8nVUYMe8qzzYUNk3Bo6fYr9R00fNkQkuXZyTCpR9YbXOsBSQ dn3HhxIYzZh3ohal0lNEUm8U0Bgm1Yi3sSMtU= Original-Received: by 10.151.82.7 with SMTP id j7mr11775062ybl.333.1248728039537; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:53:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:113253 Archived-At: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> You said that this history is for just M-x history commands. That >> semantic is really a programmers semantic. The argument we want to use >> for the user interface is rather if it is useful for users to do a >> certain thing. > > Well, that's exactly the question we're discussing: > > 1. Whether it is useful to include commands invoked using the menu in M-x's > history. > > 2. If so, whether to do that by default or only on demand. > > You and I say it can be useful (1); some others have seemed to say no. You say > this should be the default behavior (2); I say no. Neither of us is arguing from > the point of view of implementers. All arguments so far have been in terms of > usefulness to users. We just disagree. Then please don't use arguments like "As someone else said, `M-x' is, well, for `M-x'-executed commands". By that it looks like you imply there is a very special semantics behind it that we should follow. (You can of course use such language, but just throw it away when you can't defend it.) >> Really nothing more than that the argument the M-x history is for "M-x >> executed commands" is useless. It focuses more on the programming side >> than on the user. > > I don't see why. As a user, I want to see, by default, the commands I have > already entered as input to M-x. Maybe. I don't think that is true for all users since I have seen this implemented in other places (not in Emacs and I don't remember where now). Perhaps there should be an option for this then. >> If we want to put menu commands in M-x history then it is not noise. > > Again, it just means more stuff for users to search through. There should be no more than what is useful to have there and no less. So I can't find your argument here useful. > And in the Icicles > case, I include not only menu items but all commands invoked using > `call-interactively' (which means even more such noise). To me it seems very strange to put all commands called from call-interactively there so I am not proposing that. >> I can't see why that should exclude menu commands from M-x history. Do >> you do something very special when you use the menus that you do not >> do when you use M-x? > > I don't have an answer that will satisfy you, I guess. I think we can agree to > disagree. Yes, it is not very important. I am just looking for an argument from you that I can find valid in this context. I have found two arguments (that I remember) so far: - The length of the history list - A surprising content of the history list As I have said above I think I have good arguments against them, but you obviously think different. >> > You know, we _could_ always use just `minibuffer-history', >> > and have no such specificity. But that is less useful to users. >> >> And why do you say this? ... ;-) > > Why would no specificity at all be less useful? Seems obvious. Although the > `commandp' predicate for `M-x' would filter out non-commands as completion > candidates, accessing non-commands from the history via `M-p' etc. would mean > plowing through irrelevant noise. > > If you consider all of the possible types of completion candiates (colors, > buffers, files, commands, variables, ...), I should think the interest in having > separate, domain-specific history lists would be obvious. Yes, but why are you arguing against your own arguments. This has nothing to do with what I have said. (But please let us not waste time on this part.) >> Nothing wrong with that of course. I just mean that there is not so >> very much to care about for old time users if commands invoked from >> the menus are put in the M-x history. > > You mean that adding those commands won't bother old-timers? Dunno. Everything bothers old timers ... ;-) No, I really don't think it would. They mostly use menus very seldom.