From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Menu commands to M-x history? Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:39:53 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87skgqu2ce.fsf@olgas.newt.com> <7432.1248236149@olgas.newt.com> <7dbe73ed0907221134o1a1fe024k353b1a9a61482041@mail.gmail.com> <9D1E3CE97BF4491E973F872B00D6277D@us.oracle.com> <916D7A0558D14A809114127E47A21BB2@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1248714689 5041 80.91.229.12 (27 Jul 2009 17:11:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:11:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, Mathias Dahl To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 27 19:11:22 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MVTjK-0005Rm-Kt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:11:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56148 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MVTjJ-00005N-Tk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:11:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MVTF3-0000ZY-2F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:40:01 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MVTEx-0000VL-QL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33691 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MVTEx-0000VF-KG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-f178.google.com ([209.85.211.178]:54156) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MVTEv-00025R-Hl; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:39:53 -0400 Original-Received: by ywh8 with SMTP id 8so658193ywh.24 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2SkuGVR6uX9gUGsWn8MhrR24U9qb5a5hjYZdBND1FjI=; b=GYoDljs3zWzKJYx7C68gh50lDpU0dc/Q95UsjfdL1u7MbEsuZuuII9qYA6qvqhp1eB zi+IxUWLWhIxrzxU6VlUYlVy5HpE/6IKA5wf9beMkPEyxoWW5/I3Cj/h6CviCZdqZTrS yUCi16CJdVXyuK2YaC1r8qDXQDnFdDzk9SuSI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RClWVpIWNNnFTJudd0iq0L8l18PSu6QP5DbrTnkOx5lDxdEmzkhf7GD93nQV6SDMOh bvzlbevy2W6v/6ka8KARkQgwJoPelkxyjy0tmTVh+c5BDUfnSQwZNmFWICIis+shQHe7 1dfb0zywhBTEJTkJaPdqoJfeX/rVaPdj5AhQ8= Original-Received: by 10.100.48.17 with SMTP id v17mr8563981anv.135.1248712793102; Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <916D7A0558D14A809114127E47A21BB2@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:113230 Archived-At: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Matthias said: >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Quite often I execute the same M-x >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 command over and over again, doing something else in >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between, and if what I did in between included executing >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some menu commands I might be annoyed to have to step back >> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some extra steps in order to get at the command I want to = run. >> >> exactly why is it useful to distinguish between commands started >> from the menu and from M-x > > As someone else said, `M-x' is, well, for `M-x'-executed commands. Yes, Richard said that but I do not agree. The M-x history is for the users= . Don't mix the programmer semantics with the user semantics unless there is a good reason to do so. Very often there is, but not in a case like this. > That's important for users. Why is it important for users? > It is why commands executed using key bindings are also not > included in the history list. That is a totally diffirent story since it is a different context as I said before. You really do not need any of the commands you execute with a key binding in the M-x history. > So, I hear you say, filter out insignificant commands - commands such as > `self-insert-command' and `forward-char'. That is hallucination ;-) No one calls these commands from the menus. (You did not intend to say that, but I could not resist writing this ...) >> Drew, I think you see what I mean. This reasoning just gets overlay >> complicated to actually use IMO. > > Why? The only change is to provide some key to let you access the additio= nal > commands. Because it is intended to be helpful to newbies, Not to experienced Emacs u= sers. >> And it also have the advantage that it is much easier to redo >> commands that are rather deep down in the menus. > > As opposed to what? Easier to redo than what alternative - using the menu= again? Yes, of course. The reason I am saying that is that there has been some rather vaugue arguments that menus should not be to deep. (Not here, but before, Richard has said that for example.) That they should not be to deep is a valid argument mainly when you use the commands from the menus often. But it is a bad argument when you want to use the menus more for finding commands. (We use that reasoning for example in the help menus.) In the cases that the menus are deep it can be very helpful to put the commands in M-x history IMO. And the other ones does not disturb very much since you either do not use them often or use a key binding for the commands. > If that's what you mean, then we agree: It can help users if we also prov= ide > completion for commands originally accessed using a menu. The question we= seem > to disagree about is whether those commands should be available for compl= etion > _by default_, that is, as part of the normal `M-x' command history. Yes. I think they should be in M-x command history. Not putting them there is merely a misunderstanding of what semantics to use.