From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: usability problem of emacs describe-mode Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:58:15 +0100 Message-ID: References: <76fcf833-ad89-44f2-b227-e18295317ca2@p13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <449684df-6b26-4350-ba76-7316960370b3@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235782729 20957 80.91.229.12 (28 Feb 2009 00:58:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:58:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Xah Lee Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 28 02:00:05 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LdDYh-0002ph-7Q for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:00:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54111 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdDXM-0000Nw-9u for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:58:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdDX0-0000KK-3C for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:58:18 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdDWz-0000Jr-LB for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:58:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=42921 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdDWz-0000JW-DP for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:58:17 -0500 Original-Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.154]:23550) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LdDWy-000867-Rz for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:58:17 -0500 Original-Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 34so979523yxf.66 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:58:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mb4qVXWP0hm2Sd5POkTwbK7Y/F+CAL+VkGggvfizssU=; b=mFQTcaQ2V2uf1iJEIhUwYu0+b4IBX6CNp84bWrLYEldBDPRQnbp/Hhme4kNBtfaWzc Rm9iDK/uIfcl5+3RIj7PI4oeZ5NQ8sbEeWkEKrGzUs5IvGIZbu1ipTvEwfca2yd4269K a6idFVrOhAJvVhX6sRD3zf4qQ15QYr6ya8iLE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YGnc2x5tXlLVBWnzPar3oBSqw8L7dcBo0jwbjAilZDNo0Rse3/seK1drKjLa/DY8HS ezYDJXE5AP05XuZjbYVN0qgEcmxZJz9GWjeINWvYhACW58cRkAnFW8YdVu281SwkoFDL Tc4rlVZuaoUCAfjLRIhAu7gxjK+Jx+NSz8F4U= Original-Received: by 10.231.14.196 with SMTP id h4mr2549697iba.36.1235782695593; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:58:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:62464 Archived-At: On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 12:55 AM, Lennart Borgman wrote: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Xah Lee wrote: >> yesterday, but didn't see any solution or conclusion. First, we >> presume that it is in fact necessary for the paper work, as FSF says >> so. Ok, then what can we do? I don't really know. If the paper work is >> necessary, and of course FSF is practically the only one to protect >> the GPL, in a sense allowing the thousands other open source or =E2=80= =9Cfree=E2=80=9D >> software to progress freely without paperwork. It appears to me we hav >> run into a inherent =E2=80=9Cunsolvable=E2=80=9D problem. I was thinking= , perhaps GNU >> software can be considered as kinda sacrifice, by requiring the legal >> paper work in order to protect GPL for the whole open source >> community, but meanwhile sacrifice GNU software's progress due to the >> very paperwork bureaucracy... but this can't go on for long, because >> eventually GNU's software will become so bad that people all uses >> other's open source software, and if that is so, then FSF's GPL >> protection role will rot out too, because only a very small percentage >> of people is actually using FSF's =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D software... > > > I think that you are right when you assume that GPL actually protects > the other "free software" too. The key to understand this is that as > soon as the other "free software" gets under attach from copyright > holders then the GPL software will be much more important. > > It is the dynamics that counts here. > > However the main current problem in my opinion is the inability to > organize and fund ways to develop some of the main free software with > a mix of professional and "free time" developers. This could be done > if we can fight the new liberals oversimplified view of the economic > markets. However the politics are still much on their side so private > initiatives like Ubuntu is still the only way. (I am by the way very > glad for this initiative. It can perhaps serve as an example of what > governements can do - if they want to and are allowed to by the > strange economic laws we are under, the new liberal inspired laws.) I got a private note that my use of "new liberals" may be misunderstood. I use it in the European sense, as those who aggressively fight for a laissez-fair economy without ever thinking very much about the actual consequencies, but merely assume that laissez-fair policy fixes everything.