From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: usability problem of emacs describe-mode Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:55:40 +0100 Message-ID: References: <76fcf833-ad89-44f2-b227-e18295317ca2@p13g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> <449684df-6b26-4350-ba76-7316960370b3@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235778974 12805 80.91.229.12 (27 Feb 2009 23:56:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:56:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Xah Lee Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 28 00:57:30 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LdCa8-0003A6-As for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:57:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35532 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdCYn-0004sy-GK for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:56:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdCYS-0004sj-Uc for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:55:44 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdCYQ-0004sX-H5 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:55:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58539 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdCYQ-0004sU-BP for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:55:42 -0500 Original-Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.176]:2024) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LdCYQ-0000O4-1e for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:55:42 -0500 Original-Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b25so1146139elf.12 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:55:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=G1a8teU7xY9lmTTbTJGzg+zBEMAY6RqPavC1lC0/9gQ=; b=XtxIoiaH/l89ydpOedmCpL+AZdoWHhCEzodP1yB5pqxHiEdCOqUP4EeA7ZOH2z/TQZ hELXLtjsvtR4SB15/q9YGOyQlFikyUt0dFW7WlBNW/hBhyH2DpCM37Fq4ZBK4XadOZnW c5q5vtkkO0AzOs51tFsR955HCeFlkEhklUDbE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AVgz/C0LUoR/xkVLQaL6/0ECfl6e0pHJtgEeN0ccAhvqeDJzr7lpJBMyrFhza/nthp lmEixhhpu8YcdkRMc+syn/kSaBy6RNMFlftFgc0jprMyi8wNFxJd5q8rgmYAMVrKgkmm MnoK0WyN0rpUZQnbaIvHWZsCWM5lfvv0KFcrI= Original-Received: by 10.231.18.130 with SMTP id w2mr2562915iba.11.1235778940208; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:55:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <449684df-6b26-4350-ba76-7316960370b3@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:62462 Archived-At: On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Xah Lee wrote: > yesterday, but didn't see any solution or conclusion. First, we > presume that it is in fact necessary for the paper work, as FSF says > so. Ok, then what can we do? I don't really know. If the paper work is > necessary, and of course FSF is practically the only one to protect > the GPL, in a sense allowing the thousands other open source or =E2=80=9C= free=E2=80=9D > software to progress freely without paperwork. It appears to me we hav > run into a inherent =E2=80=9Cunsolvable=E2=80=9D problem. I was thinking,= perhaps GNU > software can be considered as kinda sacrifice, by requiring the legal > paper work in order to protect GPL for the whole open source > community, but meanwhile sacrifice GNU software's progress due to the > very paperwork bureaucracy... but this can't go on for long, because > eventually GNU's software will become so bad that people all uses > other's open source software, and if that is so, then FSF's GPL > protection role will rot out too, because only a very small percentage > of people is actually using FSF's =E2=80=9Cfree=E2=80=9D software... I think that you are right when you assume that GPL actually protects the other "free software" too. The key to understand this is that as soon as the other "free software" gets under attach from copyright holders then the GPL software will be much more important. It is the dynamics that counts here. However the main current problem in my opinion is the inability to organize and fund ways to develop some of the main free software with a mix of professional and "free time" developers. This could be done if we can fight the new liberals oversimplified view of the economic markets. However the politics are still much on their side so private initiatives like Ubuntu is still the only way. (I am by the way very glad for this initiative. It can perhaps serve as an example of what governements can do - if they want to and are allowed to by the strange economic laws we are under, the new liberal inspired laws.)