From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 23:09:36 +0300 Message-ID: References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <2e4e8ce9-d857-f3e3-31cf-a40dee67bd25@yandex.ru> <83y2q1dsvh.fsf@gnu.org> <2468efa6-7dbd-8634-44cc-586bb6985f49@yandex.ru> <83pnbddrfd.fsf@gnu.org> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <88adcf52-7310-6d48-ab31-5d427deaa89d@yandex.ru> <65bfd7bb-34e5-53ca-a7c1-dfd0d22eeb9d@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="69257"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 09 22:10:16 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jXVnc-000Ht9-7R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 22:10:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42792 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXVnY-00016h-NI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 16:10:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53440) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXVn4-00008w-24 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2020 16:09:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::429]:35529) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXVn2-0001Y4-WB; Sat, 09 May 2020 16:09:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id j5so5991172wrq.2; Sat, 09 May 2020 13:09:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ny60u/vTRmGVEOwFZzQQ5GUdvCZmDgpDoo8+Wkc8sdM=; b=mbS+szQmbUUE+siqKPwq5C8O5InI5YztiDU41ftAGuXUeLMzFA0bF/sibRdaYZoNoj L6FjhbnsD8iPBTUAwr6glMSVVJ8VgTjrLXAwftSLBXpRCGjYx9qmOnjTF5x0qo0UZ3M3 k9iEKrMNHUhaqx2lLkpCHyFCBKBfG7LEo0ZjoJsf483AhdkyWp9OWBKVIlhuJijVUXyH f7aIrxaj9Vu8mlSwxYqhlbFAXFOTfDf+/1xUSA9INX7Zd3i0Oy7aTGzgsb+VEwAz0AO6 nhURFbhckFxIajsWN7j8PbUciDyGfhyHWN2E6oemOT04ZG52DMoDcHn7bB2UkmpYsrAB pmwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ny60u/vTRmGVEOwFZzQQ5GUdvCZmDgpDoo8+Wkc8sdM=; b=lm+0ZvPGL36am59bGAVXsXu3vHfheLElF87sh3BkYqaio5WxdXN+aEtBUboDCPGIx0 OQKR5q1BJNn0C9H9tXL/3NwrBOg29UHfWtVv8SCfqBd3ORS/86OXu1ScQ0qWmZiO3h5m Mxq6XY6RX5QP54v4lqh96dzoWupiA7Z1IkTFYprOpTjdNr50sb5gLSjBti4GT5VVJaA2 ZMaWaejCkQIZV+XJH6QCDWH58ueuLDSviEllxBAva1BhjoDvuJYFv9/4Zmps3VxiI/FK 8TuTHS1yW5D2YEgzawIwNpUcnTedFpUOVB8YimmctvcBYY75xcgBDExxe+XN7RXgabux oM+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZJSBe1ULl7E6qPVAght93StzM2Eybi2IecE9O00K8FFIwRd1RD pgicZvsyQksEKfsSI4ZJVTiukwiI X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLEkJvf72a+zwnygLh5L8wqhQOhY32OyrwAWAqvxQVa6e24Nh57RN55m2Up+rrPyUSMReF0+w== X-Received: by 2002:adf:afd6:: with SMTP id y22mr9680735wrd.417.1589054978688; Sat, 09 May 2020 13:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r20sm18250687wmh.26.2020.05.09.13.09.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 May 2020 13:09:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x429.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249573 Archived-At: On 09.05.2020 22:49, João Távora wrote: > On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 8:12 PM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > >> Our bug tracker and development workflow has no solutions to this >> problem: everybody has to read every bug report and every commit message. > > This is good. I for one would like to spend a lot less time on Github. You might be happy with the reduced volume of bug report reaching you after such a move. Maybe less happy later to see people complaining about some problems in Eglot on Twitter, Reddit, their blogs, etc. And yet never bothering to 'M-x report-emacs-bug' them, for whatever reasons. I wonder what your choice in such a situation is going to be: ignore the problems (not reported = not a bug), or go out anyway and search for such negative feedback and ask people to "please M-x report-emacs-bug already". Because we have had been doing a lot of the latter. In any case, if you like debbugs, you could just move Eglot's development to GNU ELPA. >> Making concerted changes could become easier sometimes, but it would >> also become easier to break backward compatibility. > > Really? Am I breaking backward compatibility all the time in Emacs? Not really. But that's the only conceptual advantage I could see: changing things in tandem. To *not* break things, at least for me, packages have to be considered separately... and then having them in the same repo is not so big an advantage. In any case, it's not my main demotivator. Increased debbugs and emacs-diffs traffic is. I'd rather much work on code that sorting through email not related to me. There is nothing at all personal in this. > Don't we have tests? Don't we have a (crude) namespacing system > for those libraries? Don't we have Eli, the ever-vigilant? And Stefan > and everybody else? And weren't you the one the one who told me > not to worry about that when refactoring Flymake? Eli who hasn't found time to try out Eglot yet. Same for Stefan, I imagine. Going back to xref and project.el, for instance, it wouldn't be sufficient to submit a patch and, in the explanation, assume my familiarity with Eglot's code. So I kind of doubt it will help you a lot. > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-08/msg00415.html Yup, it was a big rewrite, and Flymake was not used as much as e.g. Eldoc is. I'm not saying you can never break backward compatibility, just that you *usually* cannot break it. >> and making a change in Emacs separately is a good reminder of that separation. > > Really, are you telling me this? Do you really think I (and other > developers) need > to be actively annoyed to be reminded of that? A file isn't enough separation? > That's not the point of GNU ELPA at all. Um, of course not. GNU ELPA is our repository of recommended packages.