From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <06bcddd4-6991-e4f7-e944-93de14af263d@yandex.ru> <87h7wjsd8o.fsf@red-bean.com> <20897f01-122d-7f91-eac2-70f5ad75796f@yandex.ru> <87d077qfmm.fsf@red-bean.com> <0462aa4d-3bad-4ae0-81b6-af1e172da31e@default> <87eerexp8q.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="45138"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, =?iso-8859-1?B?QW5kcmVhcyBS9mhsZXI=?= , Dmitry Gutov To: Karl Fogel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 20 23:57:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jbWiZ-000Bdv-3c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2130.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/20 17:43:25 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251122 Archived-At: > >> It's not like extreme user-friendliness was ever a > >> guiding principle here. :-) > > > >I disagree. There is a difference between "extreme > >user-friendliness" - which I think is, and should be, > >a guiding principle here, and prioritizing "friendly > >to newcomers". >=20 > While "friendly to newcomers" means something on its own, "user- > friendliness" only means something after one has characterized the > users in question. That's the main point I've been trying to make: > that there is no such thing as a generic user, so we have to make > decisions about which kinds of users to optimize for. >=20 > In most UI/UX conversations (not necessarily here, but on the Net in > general), most of the time people unconsciously say "user-friendly" as > a synonym for "easy for newcomers to pick up quickly" -- without > realizing that it also implies "tends not to reward sustained > investment", since these two qualities inevitably trade off. >=20 > So if we characterize our users as "those who see, or who have the > potential to see, the value of making a sustained investment in their > text manipulation environment", *then* yes, by all means Emacs should > be user-friendly. But if we're saying "user-friendly" in the > colloquial sense that most people use the term in, then no, I think it > would be a mistake for Emacs to aim for that. I agreed with that point when you made it earlier. My point was that Emacs does have the quoted "extreme user-friendliness" as a guiding principle, even if it does not treat the quoted "friendly to newcomers" as the highest priority. And the difference involves just what you said: Emacs users are not only, or even particularly, newcomers. Emacs tries hard to be friendly to its users, and you've described its main users well.