Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Johan Andersson]

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I did not google for hours. I found some things. But I found way less than I
expected. And not very good posts.

Anyway. Nice texts about this at your page. I will as you say try to use the
Svorak layout.

Thanks a lot guys!

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:

> i've been a professional qwerty typist hired for data entry for 1+
> year in early 1990s.
>
> I've been a dvorak touch typist since ~1993.
>
> Started to use emacs, and daily, since 1998.
>
> So, my emacs experience is all dvorak, and it's all good.
>
> if you are thinking some sort of dvorak for typing and qwerty for
> hotkeys, don't do that.
>
> there are quite a few pages about dvorak and emacs... how much time
> did you google?
>
> if you want to try dvorak, just switch to the layout in your OS, and
> use emacs as is. That's the best way.
>
> a lot people uses dvorak with emacs too... too lazy to cite them here.
> You can find them on blogs...etc. Try to spend a hour web search,
> you'll find probably more info or blogs, comments, etc that will take
> more than 4 hours to read, at least.
>
> i have written quite a lot on the subject myself... you can read:
>
> • Xah's Emacs Tutorial
>   http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs.html
>
> • All About Keyboards, Keyboard Layouts, Shortcuts, Macros
>  http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html
>
>  Xah
> ∑ http://xahlee.org/
>
> ☄
>
> On Oct 3, 7:58 am, Johan Andersson <johan.rej...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I've been thinking for a while about testing Dvorak in Emacs (or Svorak
> for
> > me since I'm from Sweden). Before I started I out, I googled a bit about
> > "emacs dvorak", but to my suprise got really few hits about this. So I
> > thought I'd ask here.
> >
> > First off I found out that you could do *C-\ english-dvorak RET*, which
> > would activate Dvorak but still keep the the Emacs keybindings (So that
> you
> > don't have to type C-l to go to the previous line). But that does not
> help
> > me all the way, since I want to use Svorak. And by only switching the
> Xorg
> > keyboard layout to Svorak, I'd still have to somehow remap all
> keybindings
> > in Emacs.
> >
> > So the question is basically: How do I get Svorak working in Emacs? And
> do
> > any of you even use Dvorak at all? I mean Emacs users often use Emacs
> > because you can do things really fast, so I tought that many Emacs users
> > would use Dvorak.
> >
> > Thanks!
>

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Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Johan Andersson]

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Xah Lee, You say this at your site: "This shortcut set is designed based on
ergonomic principles". What about efficiency? I guess ergonomics and
efficiency could be related. But not necessarily.

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:

> i've been a professional qwerty typist hired for data entry for 1+
> year in early 1990s.
>
> I've been a dvorak touch typist since ~1993.
>
> Started to use emacs, and daily, since 1998.
>
> So, my emacs experience is all dvorak, and it's all good.
>
> if you are thinking some sort of dvorak for typing and qwerty for
> hotkeys, don't do that.
>
> there are quite a few pages about dvorak and emacs... how much time
> did you google?
>
> if you want to try dvorak, just switch to the layout in your OS, and
> use emacs as is. That's the best way.
>
> a lot people uses dvorak with emacs too... too lazy to cite them here.
> You can find them on blogs...etc. Try to spend a hour web search,
> you'll find probably more info or blogs, comments, etc that will take
> more than 4 hours to read, at least.
>
> i have written quite a lot on the subject myself... you can read:
>
> • Xah's Emacs Tutorial
>   http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs.html
>
> • All About Keyboards, Keyboard Layouts, Shortcuts, Macros
>  http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html
>
>  Xah
> ∑ http://xahlee.org/
>
> ☄
>
> On Oct 3, 7:58 am, Johan Andersson <johan.rej...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I've been thinking for a while about testing Dvorak in Emacs (or Svorak
> for
> > me since I'm from Sweden). Before I started I out, I googled a bit about
> > "emacs dvorak", but to my suprise got really few hits about this. So I
> > thought I'd ask here.
> >
> > First off I found out that you could do *C-\ english-dvorak RET*, which
> > would activate Dvorak but still keep the the Emacs keybindings (So that
> you
> > don't have to type C-l to go to the previous line). But that does not
> help
> > me all the way, since I want to use Svorak. And by only switching the
> Xorg
> > keyboard layout to Svorak, I'd still have to somehow remap all
> keybindings
> > in Emacs.
> >
> > So the question is basically: How do I get Svorak working in Emacs? And
> do
> > any of you even use Dvorak at all? I mean Emacs users often use Emacs
> > because you can do things really fast, so I tought that many Emacs users
> > would use Dvorak.
> >
> > Thanks!
>

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Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Xah Lee]

On Oct 5, 2:39 am, Johan Andersson <johan.rej...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Xah Lee, You say this at your site: "This shortcut set is designed based on
> ergonomic principles". What about efficiency? I guess ergonomics and
> efficiency could be related. But not necessarily.

typically efficiency is part of the consideration of ergonomics.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomics

Quote: «Ergonomics (or human factors) is the scientific discipline
concerned with the understanding of interactions among humans and
other elements of a system, and the profession that applies theory,
principles, data and methods to design in order to optimize human well-
being and overall system performance.»

Note the last few words: “... and overall system performance”.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Johan Andersson]

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Hi!

I've been thinking for a while about testing Dvorak in Emacs (or Svorak for
me since I'm from Sweden). Before I started I out, I googled a bit about
"emacs dvorak", but to my suprise got really few hits about this. So I
thought I'd ask here.

First off I found out that you could do *C-\ english-dvorak RET*, which
would activate Dvorak but still keep the the Emacs keybindings (So that you
don't have to type C-l to go to the previous line). But that does not help
me all the way, since I want to use Svorak. And by only switching the Xorg
keyboard layout to Svorak, I'd still have to somehow remap all keybindings
in Emacs.

So the question is basically: How do I get Svorak working in Emacs? And do
any of you even use Dvorak at all? I mean Emacs users often use Emacs
because you can do things really fast, so I tought that many Emacs users
would use Dvorak.

Thanks!

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Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Renaud Casenave-Péré]

Hi,

I am a happy dvorak user myself and what I did was just use the new keybindings (like C-p becoming C-l)
At first, you may think the bindings aren't really usable, but you will get used to it quite easily.
Well, you'll have to use two hands to save a file or quit emacs, but if you use dvorak (or svorak), I guess you keep your two hands on the keyboard, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

So I suggest you give a chance to default bindings after switching X to Svorak.

-- 
Renaud Casenave-Péré

Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Johan Andersson]

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I guess I could try that. But it does seems like a lot of time to get used
to that. I mean, learning how to use C-n, C-f, etc... instead of using the
arrows took quite some time.

Lets say I want to keep the bindings at their current positions, how would I
go about that? Would I have to remap all bindings? I guess I could check
before each command is executed, what the command was. If it was a
self-insert-command I would do nothing. Otherwise I would translate the
binding to the dvorak layout, and the run the function. This would result in
that the regular typing will be the dvorak way, but all other function calls
would be mapped against qwerty. I guess no one has such code lying around?
;)

2009/10/3 Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr>

> Hi,
>
> I am a happy dvorak user myself and what I did was just use the new
> keybindings (like C-p becoming C-l)
> At first, you may think the bindings aren't really usable, but you will get
> used to it quite easily.
> Well, you'll have to use two hands to save a file or quit emacs, but if you
> use dvorak (or svorak), I guess you keep your two hands on the keyboard, so
> it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
>
> So I suggest you give a chance to default bindings after switching X to
> Svorak.
>
> --
> Renaud Casenave-Péré
>

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Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[B. T. Raven]

If your reason for using Svorak is to accomplish both data and command
entry by touch typing, then the default cursor movement key bindings
aren't really feasable. The rest of Emacs default assignments can be
left as is, especially if the modifier keys are remapped using Keytweak
or Xmodmap*. You certainly don't want to mix qwerty and dvorak. The
keyboard should work the same in all apps, either at system level or per
user.

The following works well for cursor movement on Dvorak and the other
voraks and mostly works for Firemacs too with a few collisions among
View, Edit, and Common settings:

;; Single char cursor movement on Dvorak layout
(global-set-key [(meta h)] 'backward-char)
(global-set-key [(meta n)] 'forward-char)
(global-set-key [(meta c)] 'previous-line)
(global-set-key [(meta t)] 'next-line)

;; upcased default bindings for h,n,c,t i.e Alt or Meta Shift
(global-set-key [(meta H)] 'mark-paragraph)
(global-set-key [(meta N)] 'next-buffer)
(global-set-key [(meta C)] 'capitalize-word)
(global-set-key [(meta T)] 'transpose-words)

The following are adlibbed. Make them whatever you want:

;;substitute for stolen metakeychords
(global-set-key [(control n)] 'next-line-mark)
(global-set-key [(control p)] 'center-paragraph)
(global-set-key [(control b)] 'beginning-of-line-mark)
(global-set-key [(control f)] 'find-function-at-point)
(global-set-key [(shift control f)] 'find-variable-at-point)

Although these are global, they are overridden in some contexts like
info, specialized modes, etc. So don't forget "backward, forward, next,
previous" mnemonics. A guru who is also an ergonomics expert should
probably incorporate all this in such a way that it can be made seamless
with the rest of Emacs. Then we could start teaching the 'voraks to the
young kids (exclusively).

On Svorak, (å, ä and ö) seem to be the only significant differences from
Dvorak, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. Since these characters
don't occur in English, I produce them with an input method rather than
by a dedicated key.

* Super, Alt, Ctl, Space, Ctl, Alt, Super, Hyper mod key layout works
well in Emacs for two-handed touch typing on 101-108 key keyboards. You
could also make Caps Lock into left Hyper if you think it's worth the
trouble.


Ed-

p.s. a good way to practice Emacs keyboarding is with keywiz.el but it
will be a humbling experience for all but the most experienced



Johan Andersson wrote:


> Thinking about it. The only thing I don't want to learn again are the
> movement keys. So I guess I could just rebind C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b, M-f
> and M-b.
> 
> 2009/10/3 Johan Andersson <johan.rejeep@gmail.com
> <mailto:johan.rejeep@gmail.com>>
> 
>     I guess I could try that. But it does seems like a lot of time to
>     get used to that. I mean, learning how to use C-n, C-f, etc...
>     instead of using the arrows took quite some time.
> 
>     Lets say I want to keep the bindings at their current positions, how
>     would I go about that? Would I have to remap all bindings? I guess I
>     could check before each command is executed, what the command was.
>     If it was a self-insert-command I would do nothing. Otherwise I
>     would translate the binding to the dvorak layout, and the run the
>     function. This would result in that the regular typing will be the
>     dvorak way, but all other function calls would be mapped against
>     qwerty. I guess no one has such code lying around? ;)
> 
>     2009/10/3 Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr
>     <mailto:renaud@casenave-pere.fr>>
> 
>         Hi,
> 
>         I am a happy dvorak user myself and what I did was just use the
>         new keybindings (like C-p becoming C-l)
>         At first, you may think the bindings aren't really usable, but
>         you will get used to it quite easily.
>         Well, you'll have to use two hands to save a file or quit emacs,
>         but if you use dvorak (or svorak), I guess you keep your two
>         hands on the keyboard, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
> 
>         So I suggest you give a chance to default bindings after
>         switching X to Svorak.
> 
>         --
>         Renaud Casenave-Péré
> 
> 
> 

Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Johan Andersson]

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Raven, looking at those movement keys, they are almost like Xah Lee's
"ergonomic emacs keybindings".

Xah Lee, looking through the dvorak lisp file you provided at your site, I
think that I could really dig those bindings, with a few modifications.
However, I was thinking about these bindings and the shell. How do you
survive (if you use a shell outside of Emacs) that the shell C-a, C-e almost
always means beginning and end of line? Of do you change them there aswell?

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:05 PM, B. T. Raven <nihil@nihilo.net> wrote:

> If your reason for using Svorak is to accomplish both data and command
> entry by touch typing, then the default cursor movement key bindings
> aren't really feasable. The rest of Emacs default assignments can be
> left as is, especially if the modifier keys are remapped using Keytweak
> or Xmodmap*. You certainly don't want to mix qwerty and dvorak. The
> keyboard should work the same in all apps, either at system level or per
> user.
>
> The following works well for cursor movement on Dvorak and the other
> voraks and mostly works for Firemacs too with a few collisions among
> View, Edit, and Common settings:
>
> ;; Single char cursor movement on Dvorak layout
> (global-set-key [(meta h)] 'backward-char)
> (global-set-key [(meta n)] 'forward-char)
> (global-set-key [(meta c)] 'previous-line)
> (global-set-key [(meta t)] 'next-line)
>
> ;; upcased default bindings for h,n,c,t i.e Alt or Meta Shift
> (global-set-key [(meta H)] 'mark-paragraph)
> (global-set-key [(meta N)] 'next-buffer)
> (global-set-key [(meta C)] 'capitalize-word)
> (global-set-key [(meta T)] 'transpose-words)
>
> The following are adlibbed. Make them whatever you want:
>
> ;;substitute for stolen metakeychords
> (global-set-key [(control n)] 'next-line-mark)
> (global-set-key [(control p)] 'center-paragraph)
> (global-set-key [(control b)] 'beginning-of-line-mark)
> (global-set-key [(control f)] 'find-function-at-point)
> (global-set-key [(shift control f)] 'find-variable-at-point)
>
> Although these are global, they are overridden in some contexts like
> info, specialized modes, etc. So don't forget "backward, forward, next,
> previous" mnemonics. A guru who is also an ergonomics expert should
> probably incorporate all this in such a way that it can be made seamless
> with the rest of Emacs. Then we could start teaching the 'voraks to the
> young kids (exclusively).
>
> On Svorak, (å, ä and ö) seem to be the only significant differences from
> Dvorak, at least as far as Emacs is concerned. Since these characters
> don't occur in English, I produce them with an input method rather than
> by a dedicated key.
>
> * Super, Alt, Ctl, Space, Ctl, Alt, Super, Hyper mod key layout works
> well in Emacs for two-handed touch typing on 101-108 key keyboards. You
> could also make Caps Lock into left Hyper if you think it's worth the
> trouble.
>
>
> Ed-
>
> p.s. a good way to practice Emacs keyboarding is with keywiz.el but it
> will be a humbling experience for all but the most experienced
>
>
>
> Johan Andersson wrote:
>
>
> > Thinking about it. The only thing I don't want to learn again are the
> > movement keys. So I guess I could just rebind C-n, C-p, C-f, C-b, M-f
> > and M-b.
> >
> > 2009/10/3 Johan Andersson <johan.rejeep@gmail.com
> > <mailto:johan.rejeep@gmail.com>>
> >
> >     I guess I could try that. But it does seems like a lot of time to
> >     get used to that. I mean, learning how to use C-n, C-f, etc...
> >     instead of using the arrows took quite some time.
> >
> >     Lets say I want to keep the bindings at their current positions, how
> >     would I go about that? Would I have to remap all bindings? I guess I
> >     could check before each command is executed, what the command was.
> >     If it was a self-insert-command I would do nothing. Otherwise I
> >     would translate the binding to the dvorak layout, and the run the
> >     function. This would result in that the regular typing will be the
> >     dvorak way, but all other function calls would be mapped against
> >     qwerty. I guess no one has such code lying around? ;)
> >
> >     2009/10/3 Renaud Casenave-Péré <renaud@casenave-pere.fr
> >     <mailto:renaud@casenave-pere.fr>>
> >
> >         Hi,
> >
> >         I am a happy dvorak user myself and what I did was just use the
> >         new keybindings (like C-p becoming C-l)
> >         At first, you may think the bindings aren't really usable, but
> >         you will get used to it quite easily.
> >         Well, you'll have to use two hands to save a file or quit emacs,
> >         but if you use dvorak (or svorak), I guess you keep your two
> >         hands on the keyboard, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem.
> >
> >         So I suggest you give a chance to default bindings after
> >         switching X to Svorak.
> >
> >         --
> >         Renaud Casenave-Péré
> >
> >
> >
>

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Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Xah Lee]

On Oct 5, 12:57 am, Johan Andersson <johan.rej...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Raven, looking at those movement keys, they are almost like Xah Lee's
> "ergonomic emacs keybindings".
>
> Xah Lee, looking through the dvorak lisp file you provided at your site, I
> think that I could really dig those bindings, with a few modifications.
> However, I was thinking about these bindings and the shell. How do you
> survive (if you use a shell outside of Emacs) that the shell C-a, C-e almost
> always means beginning and end of line? Of do you change them there aswell?

when you opt for something that's less conventional, such as dvorak
layout, you trade for certain disadvantage... e.g. unable to touch-
type at public library, inconvenient to have co-work type on your
keyboard, some inconvenience when using some software, such as some
gaming software that doesn't respect your OS wide layout setting, some
inconvenience in using some hardware, such as those palm-sized mini-
computer that comes with a hardware keyboard with qwerty printed on
them and too small to be touch-typed even software mapped to dvorak...
etc.

similarly, if you adopt the ErgoEmacs Keybinding for your emacs... you
stop using the conventional emacs keybindings for bash... either you
spend time to tweak your keybinding system wide, or spend time to
tweak your shell's binding... or just switch memory when in shell as
you do between different apps or OSes. etc. For me, i just use emacs
default keybinding when i'm in shell... but 99% of the time i run
shell inside emacs.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄

Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[B. T. Raven]

Xah Lee wrote:
> On Oct 5, 12:57 am, Johan Andersson <johan.rej...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Raven, looking at those movement keys, they are almost like Xah Lee's
>> "ergonomic emacs keybindings".
>>
>> Xah Lee, looking through the dvorak lisp file you provided at your site, I
>> think that I could really dig those bindings, with a few modifications.
>> However, I was thinking about these bindings and the shell. How do you
>> survive (if you use a shell outside of Emacs) that the shell C-a, C-e almost
>> always means beginning and end of line? Of do you change them there aswell?
> 
> when you opt for something that's less conventional, such as dvorak
> layout, you trade for certain disadvantage... e.g. unable to touch-
> type at public library, inconvenient to have co-work type on your
> keyboard, some inconvenience when using some software, such as some
> gaming software that doesn't respect your OS wide layout setting, some
> inconvenience in using some hardware, such as those palm-sized mini-
> computer that comes with a hardware keyboard with qwerty printed on
> them and too small to be touch-typed even software mapped to dvorak...
> etc.

Blackberries are supposed to be thumbed anyway. Layout on such a
miniscule keyboard isn't a touch typing issue since the method will
always be essentially hunt and peck.
Of course libraries should have a Dvorak keyboard option available with
a one-click or one-keychord method of changing keyboards. In practice,
at libraries, you're typing a few search terms or short commands so that
two-fingered typing doesn't have to be endured for long.

> 
> similarly, if you adopt the ErgoEmacs Keybinding for your emacs... you
> stop using the conventional emacs keybindings for bash... either you
> spend time to tweak your keybinding system wide, or spend time to
> tweak your shell's binding... or just switch memory when in shell as
> you do between different apps or OSes. etc. For me, i just use emacs
> default keybinding when i'm in shell... but 99% of the time i run
> shell inside emacs.

In both Linux and w32 environments you have the same keyboard layout in
Emacs, shell and in all other apps. You wouldn't expect to have Emacs
keybindings outside of Emacs in either enviroment unless you explicitly
set them up as shortcut keys on a per app basis, as in Firemacs.

> 
>   Xah
> ∑ http://xahlee.org/
> 
> ☄

Re: Dvorak/Svorak in Emacs

[Xah Lee]

On Oct 6, 10:20 am, "B. T. Raven" <ni...@nihilo.net> wrote:
> > when you opt for something that's less conventional, such as dvorak
> > layout, you trade for certain disadvantage... e.g. unable to touch-
> > type at public library, inconvenient to have co-work type on your
> > keyboard, some inconvenience when using some software, such as some
> > gaming software that doesn't respect your OS wide layout setting, some
> > inconvenience in using some hardware, such as those palm-sized mini-
> > computer that comes with a hardware keyboard with qwerty printed on
> > them and too small to be touch-typed even software mapped to dvorak...
> > etc.
>
> Blackberries are supposed to be thumbed anyway. Layout on such a
> miniscule keyboard isn't a touch typing issue since the method will
> always be essentially hunt and peck.

So, that means, when you use Blackberries, you have to thumb them, and
when you thumb them, you have to face qwerty buttons. For a person who
are used to Dvorak, that is a inconvenience, even though the person is
not touch typing.

> Of course libraries should have a Dvorak keyboard option available with
> a one-click or one-keychord method of changing keyboards.

Library is a example of the thesis.

> In practice,
> at libraries, you're typing a few search terms or short commands so that
> two-fingered typing doesn't have to be endured for long.

many libraries in the US, in tech advanced cities anyway, such as the
San Francisco Bay Area of California , have internet terminals that
lets library users use for prolonged period of time. (when there are a
lot people in waiting, typically 20 min or 30 min per person)

Again, library is just a example of the thesis.

For example, besides libraries, there are companies, any public
terminal, public exhibitions, meuseums, ... etc. The point being, that
if u chose dvorak layout, you encounter many inconveniences in lots of
places and situations. Many of these situation are trivial,
insignificant, can be worked around, but nevertheless, they are
inconveniences and annoyances.

The more general point being, there is inconvenience when you choose
something that is less common, even if superior.  This applies to the
dvorak layout users, as well as Mac users in the PC world, as well as
Linux users in the PC world.

Xah wrote:
> > similarly, if you adopt the ErgoEmacs Keybinding for your emacs... you
> > stop using the conventional emacs keybindings for bash... either you
> > spend time to tweak your keybinding system wide, or spend time to
> > tweak your shell's binding... or just switch memory when in shell as
> > you do between different apps or OSes. etc. For me, i just use emacs
> > default keybinding when i'm in shell... but 99% of the time i run
> > shell inside emacs.

B T Raven wrote:
> In both Linux and w32 environments you have the same keyboard layout in
> Emacs, shell and in all other apps. You wouldn't expect to have Emacs
> keybindings outside of Emacs in either enviroment unless you explicitly
> set them up as shortcut keys on a per app basis, as in Firemacs.

not sure what is your point or what are you trying to say. Are these
general remarks, or as counter argument to my previous post? As
general remark, i don't think it is true or exact enough. For example,
you said:

> In both Linux and w32 environments you have the same keyboard layout in
> Emacs, shell and in all other apps

Hum?? i assume w32 means Microsoft Windows? In Microsoft Windows, the
general common keybinding, or common shortcuts for text editing
related applications, certainly isn't like emacs. At best, we can say
that emacs also support some of it.

In unixes, typically the bash shell supports *PARTS* of emacs's text
editing shortcuts. If you are using other shell, they don't suppor
emacs keyboard shortcuts for text editing by default. Some can be
customived to, and i'm not sure they all can.

In linuxes, which i haven't used for about 7 years, i assume it is
still similar to unixes in this context, as explained in above
paragraph.

  Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

☄