From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: edgar@openmail.cc Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87in7bm4sc.fsf@mbork.pl> <87vab9zizo.fsf@gnuvola.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527520717 2854 195.159.176.226 (28 May 2018 15:18:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 15:18:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.2.4 Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon May 28 17:18:33 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNJuo-0000ZA-Tx for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 17:18:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56713 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNJwu-0000vZ-6r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 11:20:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58195) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNJw9-0000tM-RF for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 11:19:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNJw7-0008Uf-3q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 11:19:53 -0400 Original-Received: from onethreetwo.vfemail.net ([199.16.11.132]:6868 helo=vfemail.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNJw6-0008Sd-Sv for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 11:19:51 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 37511 invoked by uid 89); 28 May 2018 15:19:44 -0000 Original-Received: from localhost (HELO freequeue.vfemail.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 28 May 2018 15:19:42 -0000 Original-Received: (qmail 78179 invoked by uid 89); 27 May 2018 18:32:29 -0000 Original-Received: by simscan 1.4.0 ppid: 78173, pid: 78176, t: 0.0032s scanners:none Original-Received: from unknown (HELO smtp102-2.vfemail.net) (172.16.100.62) by FreeQueue with SMTP; 27 May 2018 18:32:29 -0000 Original-Received: (qmail 14541 invoked by uid 89); 27 May 2018 18:32:17 -0000 Original-Received: by simscan 1.4.0 ppid: 14535, pid: 14538, t: 0.0619s scanners:none Original-Received: from unknown (HELO www.vfemail.net) (ZWRnYXJAb3Blbm1haWwuY2M=@172.16.100.137) by 172.16.100.62 with ESMTPA; 27 May 2018 18:32:16 -0000 Original-Received: from yfeeFuR4IgmL1Vk7gGszUQrdY4uHMNvgIXfukpWSDcX/C449GTbWFA== (iErX1prUt19uCpHryWAmYh86k+tLvVJ2) by www.vfemail.net with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Sun, 27 May 2018 13:32:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Sender: edgar@openmail.cc X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 8.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 199.16.11.132 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:116881 Archived-At: On 2018-05-27 17:19, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> > If you add "freedom to do X" you inevitably remove the >> > "freedom from having others do X". >> X is Free Software. >> i write some, share it widely. >> this stops your X how? > > Of course, like all tradeoffs, some are trivial because the downside > is negligible. Still, which part of what I wrote do you dispute? > > > Stefan I guess that this got lost in the mailbox (because--I just noticed--I did not edit the subject): -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: help-gnu-emacs Digest, Vol 186, Issue 39 Date: 2018-05-26 07:24 From: edgar@openmail.cc To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 15:19:29 -0400 > From: Stefan Monnier > To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org > >> We are talking about people's freedom. > > "Freedom" is a vague concept, applied in very subjective ways. Yep. That's what I meant before (a very human concept). Still, does not prevent us from trying to understand or define it. > It's not like you can increase freedom in some respect without reducing > it elsewhere. This sounded like a scratching blackboard. These are not my words: “once a {person} has seen that values depend upon {her or himself, (s)}he can will only one thing, and that is freedom as the foundation of all values.” Sartre is clear that freedom underpins every choice we make, and so (as our values are nothing more than our choices) freedom underpins every value we create. So when I choose I am not only choosing a particular action, I am also willing the freedom which enables me to make that choice in the first place. We can add in here Sartre’s view that whatever I choose myself I am also choosing as an image or ideal for the whole of humanity. Therefore, whenever I make any free choice of my own I am also willing freedom for the whole of humanity; I am universalising freedom. I am not a philosopher, but the guy who wrote it was. Now, we could ask Nietzsche or Hume what they think about this, and see the sparks from afar. :P > So "rational" doesn't have much to do with it. If trying to understand it or define it is not an option, I agree :) . > Stefan Thank you, Stefan. May be we could get together one of these days to discuss more about the subject. In the mean time, I want to express my appreciation to all of your comments. ---- End forwarded message ---- I came here asking for your help on a particular issue that I need to solve. Although the discussion about freedom is a very needed one, I wish not to take responsibility on its development on this forum (it seems like hijacking). I would suggest the readers and writers to go through the history of philosophy (or some sort of monograph) to find the answers which others have already produced on the topic. It is not by chance that there is still a discussion on whether one should produce software with GPL (and adherents) or not. This discussion seems to be drifting towards closed v.s. proprietary v.s. non-free v.s. free software. To me, there needs to be a real discussion which remains recorded, but I don't know if the moderators and other users of this list are going to appreciate it if it happens here. Out of respect, I recuse myself. As I have expressed already, I thank all of you very much for your comments on my personal issue :) ------------------------------------------------- ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out of the NSA's hands! $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features! 15GB disk! No bandwidth quotas! Commercial and Bulk Mail Options!