From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#21563: 24.5; discourage load-hook variables Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:08:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <39185.7955.374134.22021@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87tv4w1poj.fsf@marxist.se> <87muaoz2qu.fsf@marxist.se> <320a9fa6-6419-420e-ac97-9dcbe54a04a6@default> <87h80wz0dm.fsf@marxist.se> <80b979c0-0fdf-4b84-bf1b-cde0a596f8bb@default> <87tv4vy19c.fsf@marxist.se> <877e1r400b.fsf@marxist.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="33779"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Roland Winkler , 21563@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 16 22:10:20 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1isCPD-0008ak-LK for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:09:07 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2xjxm7jh7k-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:09:05 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 00GL8v0Z016498; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:08:57 GMT In-Reply-To: <877e1r400b.fsf@marxist.se> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9502 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2001160171 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9502 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2001160171 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:174743 Archived-At: > > Here's what I'd suggest, if you are bent on removing > > all load hooks and deprecating them: > > > > 1. Try removing all of them from the vanilla > > (distributed) Elisp code. > > > > 2. Run with that for a major release or two. If no > > problems, then deprecate (declare obsolete). >=20 > I'm not sure I understand the proposal. What is the "vanilla > (distributed) Elisp code"? The code that GNU Emacs distributes. > What does "removing all of them" mean, and > how is removing them more cautious than adding a deprecation warning > to the variables? It doesn't matter to me whether you remove all or only some. I meant remove them - any or all. The more you remove, the more sure you are that deprecation might make sense. Don't deprecate (step 2) before removing them all, though, to be sure your replacement handles all of the existing GNU Emacs cases, at least. > Third party packages are free to continue doing that. AFAICT, we have > no way to stop them -- and I wouldn't advocate for that. For step 1, I'm suggesting that you _not_ deprecate (declare obsolete) or recommend against. Otherwise, you are prescribing something for 3rd-party code. And you're doing that before you've actually tried it thoroughly for your own code. > Am I missing something here? >=20 > I'm not sure if this was clear, but the course of action suggested by > Glenn was to add deprecation warnings to the load-hook variables in > GNU Emacs. Please see the attached patches for an example. And that is just what I'm suggesting not to do. First remove them from wherever you want from the GNU Emacs code. Then wait, and see how that goes. Then, after a release or two, provide your deprecation warnings. There's no hurry for this, AFAIK. And these things were added on purpose - they didn't fall from the sky. Wait and see how things go. That's my suggestion. It makes little sense (to me) to deprecate something before you've even tried doing without it for a while. Go on the diet yourself (not you, personally!) before you start telling everyone outside core Emacs to go on it. That's all.