Re: vterm and Meta?

[hw <hw@adminart.net>]

On Fri, 2023-08-04 at 17:42 -0400, tpeplt wrote:
> hw <hw@adminart.net> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, 2023-08-03 at 18:29 -0400, tpeplt wrote:
> > > hw <hw@adminart.net> writes:
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Here is a keyboard remapping suggestion (bottom row of keyboard):
> > > > > 
> > > > >    [alt/meta] [ctrl] [      space      ] [ctrl] [alt/meta]
> > > > > 
> > > >  [...]
> > > > 
> > > > [1]:
> > > > https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=UB40B5A
> 
> It sounds as though you have made up your mind not to try the
> suggestion, above, which is understandable because many people have
> firm, fixed views about the most usable way to configure their keyboard.

It's a good suggestion and I considered it.  I'm not gona follow it
because it makes no sense for me, not because I have firm, fixed
views.  I have a collection of keyboards all of wich are different,
all of them except one have a German layout which doesn't have two Alt
keys; some of them have these retarded windows keys that always get in
the way while others don't, and I'm somtimes using keyboards on other
machines.  I have found a way to deal with it and part of that way is
to go with default configurations as far as possible because it means
that I can use emacs and other software with whatever keyboard is
connected.  Also I don't have the time to configure every machine I
run emacs on with the same configuration I have on my workstation at
home, and doing that won't make sense because some of these machines
don't have keyboards and emacs is accessed through ssh through
whatever keyboard the machine has that is used to connect to them. The
default of the last 30+ years is that ESC is the only Meta key you
get.  That my workstation at home is now configured to have Alt as
Meta is an exception.  I probably can't even be bothered to configure
my laptop like that and whenever I can I connect a "real" keyboard to
it of whatever layout which happens to be available.  Its keyboard is
totally different again.

If had a firm, fixed view, I wouldn't get anywhere.  So please don't
assume that would the reason I'm not following your suggestion.

Your suggestion does not work with a Germany keyboard, especially when
it has windows keys that get in the way.  There are probably other
keyboards for different languages with which it doesn't work, either.
Have you considered that?

> [..]
> > I'm finding it much easier to slightly move my left hand to press left
> > Ctrl where it is with my little finger.  With Ctrl and Alt swapped, I
> > can't really bend my right thumb to reach right Ctrl whereas I can
> > press it with my little finger when the keys aren't swapped.
> > 
> 
> Yes, unless the <Ctrl> keys are moved to the keys immediately to the
> left and right of the <SPC> key, the suggestion of using <Ctrl>-[ should
> not be used.

Swapping Alt and Ctrl on the right side of _this_ keyboard would make
Ctrl virtually inaccessible.  Why would I ever press Cltr+[ instead of
Alt for Meta?  If you remember, pressing that requires you to press
AltGr+Shift+Ctrl+8 on a German keyboard.

That's bascially an unpressable key combination.  The only other
program that I know of which uses that is telnet, and it took me years
until I finally realised what they meant.  Telnet used to say
something like "press ^[", and that's one of the most unhelpful hints
you can find.  IIRC, joe used Ctrl+[ for some things which probably
means that wordstar used it, too.  Ctrl+[ may make sense on an US
keyboard and it doesn't on a German one.  I never used that.
AltGr+Shift+Ctrl+8 is just too much.

> The most typed key on the keyboard or a typewriter is the
> <SPC> key, so the design should and does place it under the strongest
> finger (the two thumbs).

You're totally wrong here:

If you have ever used a mechanical typewriter --- and that is where
the keyboard layouts we commonly still use today originate from ---
you will have noticed that space is the key that requires the least
strength to press.  The carriage is spring driven and space only
releases it to go one letter further, which is easy.  With all other
keys, you have to hit them hard for the lever to slam down upon the
ribbon to get the letter printed on the paper, plus printed on the
copies you may also have wound into the machine.  That means each
finger has to slam so hard as to print the letter through the ribbon
onto the paper the ribbon prints on (already hard) and then another
two pieces of paper with copy sheets in between of each of them
(*really* hard).  Two copies is about as much as you can do with a
good mechanical typewriter, and it was usually avoided.  As a typist,
you had to have really strong fingers while your thumbs always had the
easiest job, no matter how many copies you had in the machine.

When typewriters were invented, manual labour was way different from
how it is today and ppl back then probably had incredibly strong
fingers.  Finger strength was probably not a concern at all when it
came to the placement of the keys.  They wanted to place them
conveniently and at the same time couldn't place them too conveniently
because when you type fast on a mechnical typewriter, the levers don't
have enough time to get out of the way of the other levers and then
the levers get stuck on each other and then the machine is jammed
up. That also involved putting levers for frequently used characters
apart from other levers for frequently used characters because the
further the levers were away from each other, the more room they had
not to get into each others way.  Since the levers were directly
connected to the keys, that meant to have to place the keys away from
each other.

Nowadays, how much force and thus strength is needed to press a key
only depends on the design of the key.  That is since electrical
typewriters were invented, and that was a long time ago.  Only the
keyboard layout didn't change much because people are used to it.

> Reaching slightly to the left and right of the <SPC> key with the
> thumbs

On the right side of this keyboard, the key rightmost the space bar is
labled Alt, and it is so far to the right that I can't really bend my
thumb all that way.  There is not slightly here, and every keyboard is
different.

> means that 1) a strong finger does the reach

Wich is irrelevant because the key isn't any harder to press than the
others --- depending on the keyboard, of course, since there are
keyboards with keys that are harder to press than others.

If your fingers are so weak that it does matter, you may need a
keyboard with keys that are particularly easy to press.

> and 2) like Shift keys, your hands can be used together.

I can use my hands together all the time.

> For example, to type <Ctrl>-u, press and hold the left <Ctrl> with
> your left thumb while typing the "u" with a finger on your right
> hand.

Ctrl-U is very difficult to press.  I never do that unless I really
have to, which is almost never.  Perhaps my hands aren't as bendy
yours.

If I were to press it, I would press right Ctrl with my right little
finger.  It's easier to do that than to try to bend my thumb all the
way to reach the Alt key.  And it doesn't require special
configuration.

> Likewise, to type <Ctrl>-a, press and hold the right <Ctrl>
> with your right thumb while typing the "a" with your left pinkie.

That wouldn't be feasible when Ctrl and Alt were swapped.  Pressing
Ctrl with mit right little finger works fine.

You might suggest a keyboard with three keys in the middle of the
space bar, i. e. Space-Ctrl-Alt-Ctrl-Space.  That way, the thumbs can
either press Ctrl on one side or Alt on any side, or bend a little
left or right to press Space.  I might like that.  (And why are there
no keyboards that have different textures for keys to make them more
distinguishable by touch?)

> The common practice of putting the <Ctrl> key on the <CapsLock> key
> means that only one <Ctrl> key is used and so the left hand has to be
> used to type both the <Ctrl> key and the second key.  No one would
> suggest that the two <Shift> keys be reduced to a single key.

Having an additional Ctrl on the otherwise annoying key for CapsLock
gives you more Ctrl keys and doesn't reduce the number of Ctrl keys to
only one.

> > That would be totally weird.  And it would create issues, like how am
> > I supposed to press Cltr-l without bending my hand when the Ctrl key
> > is misplaced?
> > 
> 
> It should be the same, nearly, as pressing the <SPC> bar with your left
> thumb -- one of the most frequent key presses on the keyboard.

No, I press Ctrl with my little finger on the right side.  That key is
where it is supposed to be, i. e. where my finger presses.  If I were
to swap Ctrl and Alt it would suck because I'd have to go out of my
way and relearn for an inconvenient keyboard layout with the only
machine with which I'd have that is my workstation at home, and only
as long as I have an US keyboard connected to it.  And remember,
German keyboards don't have an Alt key on the right, so what do you
suggest how I would configure all those after I painstakingly learned
where to press Alt and Ctrl?  For keyboards that have the retarded
windows keys, I usually put either Alt or Ctrl on them because that
gets less in the way, but only at home.  Unfortunately, pulling those
key caps doesn't really help because the keys remain.

> > If you want to get a Model M, go for it.  It's still overall the best
> > keyboard you can get.  The original ones have become expensive and
> > hard to find and may be worn out after 30 years.  Fortunately, you can
> > get a new one from Unicomp, and that's very likely the better deal.
> > 
> 
> Thank you for the recommendation.  It sounds like a nice keyboard and
> keyboards are worth investing in for typists, including programmers.
> Although those keyboards are much better than laptop keyboards, my
> suggestion to move the Ctrl keys is made after using it on laptop
> keyboards for many years.

Ah, well, I hate laptop keyboards and avoid using them as much as I
can.  They are unsuited for typing and some keys are in very wrong
places, making them unusable for some things and generally not usable
but unfriendly.  It's acceptable for a makeshift solution because
carrying a laptop is more than enough even without carrying a keyboard
along with one.  If I had to actually use my laptop, I'd carry a
keyboard with it.  Why don't they just make laptops with decent
keyboards.

> In fact, a critical consideration when buying
> a laptop is whether it has the <Ctrl> and <Alt> keys in the locations
> outlined above (that is, to the left and right of the <SPC> key).  I
> have rejected laptops that do not have that because it would lead to RSI
> and make typing for programming significantly slower and more difficult.

Try to find a laptop that has Home, End, Del, Insert, PgUp, PgDown and
the like where they are supposed to be ...

> > And my thumbs are pretty much the last fingers I'd use to press Ctrl
> > when the rest of my fingers are at the home row.  The home row is
> > great for typing, not for moving around.  I either type or move
> > around, and for moving around, the dedicated movement keys are very
> > convenient.  How much do you move around on a typewriter?
> > 
> 
> The point of the suggested move is to make typing easier and less
> prone to RSI.  It mostly isn’t even necessary to leave the home row (an
> occasional <Alt>-<Tab> or <Super> key) and use the very large number of
> Emacs key combinations.  Key combinations become just like another kind
> of "shift."

It's also not necessary to torture myself.  And again, try the emacs
way of movement with ESC being the only Meta key you have.  I'm sure
that's gone be fun ;)

> > > A suggestion to try is to reposition the keys and go through the Emacs
> > > Tutorial (C-h t).  That would provide practice using many Ctrl key
> > > combinations and could help you decide whether this new approach is to
> > > your liking.
> > 
> > I did that in the 90ies on my Atari ST.  You can still find pictures
> > of the keyboards they used.  How much sense do you think that tutorial
> > made with these keyboards (their German version) --- and no, Alt
> > didn't work for Meta but ESC did.
> > 
> 
> It didn’t make sense and it lead to RSIs.  Fortunately, since then
> keyboards moved from having a single <Ctrl> key to having two, along
> with two <Alt> keys.

The Atari ST keyboards didn't lead to RSI.  PC keyboards have differnt
keys since a very long time.  German keyboards still have only one Alt
key ...

> This, plus the ability to reconfigure the keyboard has mostly
> eliminated RSI and increases typing speed (including Emacs’s
> commands).

Yes, after 30+ years I could finally configure my workstation to use
Alt as Meta.  It still doesn't work on my laptop or any other computer
...  And it didn't lead to RSI ever.

Just use a good keyboard, not a laptop keyboard.

> [..]
> > Your suggestions are good, only they don't work for me.
> 
> OK.  That was always a possibility.  It is a suggestion for you to
> consider and you still could reconsider now that you have seen it as a
> possibility.

Well, swapping Alt and Ctrl on the right might make some sense, but I
sometimes press Ctrl-a and Ctrl-e with my right hand.  Try that when
swapped ...  And it's too much configuration.

> (I had RSI for years because I could not see how a simple
> reconfiguration could fix the problem for me, and I wished I had
> seen it suggested from the beginning.  It is such a significantly
> better arrangement that I wish it was documented in the Emacs
> Manual.  It could help many people overcome the problem of the
> complicated key combinations being difficult and driving them not to
> use Emacs.)  Here’s hoping that it might be helpful for some other
> reader who uses Emacs.

Perhaps you could write a manual that can be included in Emacs.  I've
never had such isses and always used decent keyboards.

Or quit trying to use laptop keyboards and get a decent keyboard.
Nowadays you can get some decent ones, and which switches you like is
personal preference.  Just stay away from so-called "gaming keyboards"
(or other "gaming" hardware).  They can be incompatible, and stuff
labled "gaming" either sucks and doesn't work right, or is way
overpriced, or both.

Also, move your hands some more instead of forcing them to remain in
the home row and to bend themselves so unnaturally to the keyboard.
It's good for them and the fingers when they can assume different
positions and stretch in different ways and directions, like when
pressing dedicated movement keys.  Otherwise it's no wonder that you
hurt yourself, especially with a laptop keyboard.