From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:33:01 +0900 Message-ID: References: <48914.130.55.118.19.1242592120.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> <66C6BA04EBCF4B6DAED69E851627D852@us.oracle.com> <87eiue83i7.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <87my92dmdt.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <87eiudewtq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <831vqdubqy.fsf@gnu.org> <6161f3180905270548t3012bc1ah161719ae01db0fb5@mail.gmail.com> <87prdpky0x.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <18979.1249.47148.538392@rgr.rgrjr.com> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1243823606 22977 80.91.229.12 (1 Jun 2009 02:33:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 02:33:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Bob Rogers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 01 04:33:24 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MAxL1-0000xg-2Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:33:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51667 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MAxL0-0006BX-45 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:33:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MAxKu-0006AH-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:33:16 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MAxKp-0005zw-Tb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:33:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54329 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MAxKp-0005zk-N6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:33:11 -0400 Original-Received: from tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp ([202.32.8.193]:41142) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MAxKl-00074Z-Dg; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:33:08 -0400 Original-Received: from relay21.aps.necel.com ([10.29.19.50]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id n512X1Cw000632; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:33:01 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from relay21.aps.necel.com ([10.29.19.20] [10.29.19.20]) by relay21.aps.necel.com with ESMTP; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:33:01 +0900 Original-Received: from dhlpc061 ([10.114.114.58] [10.114.114.58]) by relay21.aps.necel.com with ESMTP; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:33:01 +0900 Original-Received: by dhlpc061 (Postfix, from userid 31295) id 9512552E26E; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:33:01 +0900 (JST) System-Type: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-Reply-To: <18979.1249.47148.538392@rgr.rgrjr.com> (Bob Rogers's message of "Sun, 31 May 2009 18:29:53 -0400") Original-Lines: 33 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 8 (1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:111232 Archived-At: Bob Rogers writes: > Why do you suppose an Emacs newbie would expect the arrow keys to be the > same as C-n/C-p? I don't think they'll "expect" that, I hope they'll learn from what we tell them, part of which is the traditional emacs key-bindings. That learning is what will be easier if emacs traditional key-bindings are simply different names for familiar concepts. > Personally, I would welcome binding visual movement to the arrow keys > -- the arrows do *look* visual, especially compared to C-n/C-p. And it > would make it much easier to switch between the two modes of movement if > the visual/textual distinction was supported by distinct commands bound > to distinct keys. Perhaps, but in this case it's harmful: whether one wants to use arrow keys or "emacsy" bindings tends to be dictated by the physical nature of the keyboard and one's task -- arrow keys are convenient because they're labelled, and a single keystroke, but they're inefficient and annoying if one is touch-typing (due to the very large hand movement required to use them), and lack integration with the general emacs key-binding scheme -- so it's very desirable to be able to switch between them. Having them be "similar but subtly different" horribly confuses an otherwise straight-forward association. -Miles -- [|nurgle|] ddt- demonic? so quake will have an evil kinda setting? one that will make every christian in the world foamm at the mouth? [iddt] nurg, that's the goal