From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Debian's idiosyncratic complexification of Emacs Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:12:00 +0900 Message-ID: References: <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> <487A783B.7060603@gmail.com> <20080713232635.GD1076@muc.de> <85od51id2t.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080714204242.GH6711@volo.donarmstrong.com> <20080714223059.GG3445@muc.de> <8763r858dx.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87prpgrm7i.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <758ED2B7-1F24-447C-B155-6A4C9659B7D7@member.fsf.org> Reply-To: Miles Bader NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1216114132 8688 80.91.229.12 (15 Jul 2008 09:28:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:28:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Geoffrey Teale Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 15 11:29:39 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KIgqo-0001QV-Js for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:29:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52665 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KIgpw-0001iu-6P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:28:44 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KIgnZ-0000pe-IH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:26:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KIgnX-0000oe-4R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:26:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54095 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KIglm-0008Ru-GV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:24:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:47613) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KIfdq-0003JU-4q; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:12:10 -0400 Original-Received: from tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp ([202.32.8.193]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KIfdm-0007ZN-IF; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:12:07 -0400 Original-Received: from relay31.aps.necel.com ([10.29.19.54]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m6F8C1K9011890; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:12:01 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: from relay11.aps.necel.com ([10.29.19.24] [10.29.19.24]) by relay31.aps.necel.com with ESMTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:12:01 +0900 Original-Received: from dhapc248.dev.necel.com ([10.114.112.215] [10.114.112.215]) by relay11.aps.necel.com with ESMTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:12:01 +0900 Original-Received: by dhapc248.dev.necel.com (Postfix, from userid 31295) id 20D2959F; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:12:01 +0900 (JST) System-Type: i686-pc-linux-gnu Blat: Foop In-Reply-To: <758ED2B7-1F24-447C-B155-6A4C9659B7D7@member.fsf.org> (Geoffrey Teale's message of "Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:11:45 +0200") Original-Lines: 36 X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Solaris 8 (1) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100727 Archived-At: Geoffrey Teale writes: > On a personal note - I find the idea of subverting the norms of an > application to reduce usability in a distribution, not increase it. > Especially where the tool in question (Emacs) is intended for a > technical audience. > > I am certain that the Debian set up is there with the best of intentions > (just like their Common LISP setup), but nothing has made me more > frustrated in a GNU/Linux distribution than the Emacs setup under > debian, and anyone of my colleagues at my last employer we testify to > that :) To be fair though, debian has constraints that don't hold for a normal emacs installation, like the desire to integrate external elisp packages seamlessly, have multiple versions of emacs installed simultaneously, and for those two things to not screw each other up. >From what I know (I haven't looked at the details in ages though), I think their approach is not too bad, though obviously it has warts, historical and otherwise. [I've even hacked up my .emacs so I can use debian elisp packages, which is kind of convenient.] Given that debian have reasonable goals, and aren't doing anything egregiously stupid (no comment on that one, just assuming for the moment... :-), it would be nice if emacs' default mechanisms would aid what they're doing. If there are conflicts, I think in many cases that means emacs' mechanisms should be extended, rather than meaning debian should give up their goals. -Miles -- Carefully crafted initial estimates reward you not only with reduced computational effort, but also with understanding and increased self-esteem. -- Numerical methods in C, Chapter 9. "Root Finding and Nonlinear Sets of Equations"