point of "buffer still has clients" message

point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Jarek Czekalski]

Hi

I don't see a point of "buffer still has clients, kill it" message. 
Found a stackoverflow item [1] about it, read the explanation that 
follows in shreevatsa blog [2], but this still remains a mistery.

The other editors I know don't ask this question and I never noticed any 
problem. Maybe it's time to revise it? I believe it must be annoying to 
all the people switching from a "normal" editor.

Can someone provide a use case for this message?

I know there are workarounds and I can remove it. But first I'm checking 
if this shouldn't be removed in factory.

Thanks
Jarek

[1] 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/268088/how-to-remove-the-prompt-for-killing-emacsclient-buffers
[2] http://shreevatsa.wordpress.com/2007/01/06/using-emacsclient/

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:52:10 +0100
> From: Jarek Czekalski <jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl>
> 
> I don't see a point of "buffer still has clients, kill it" message. 

(FWIW, I don't see a point of raising the issue here, as opposed to
the developers' list.)

> Found a stackoverflow item [1] about it, read the explanation that 
> follows in shreevatsa blog [2], but this still remains a mistery.

The second one explains the reason quite clearly, I think.  You need
to release the client when the file is safely stored on disk.  How
else you suggest to do this, except by a special command?

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Jarek Czekalski]

W dniu 2013-11-25 18:07, Eli Zaretskii pisze:
>> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:52:10 +0100
>> From: Jarek Czekalski <jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl>
>>
>> I don't see a point of "buffer still has clients, kill it" message.
> The second one explains the reason quite clearly, I think.  You need
> to release the client when the file is safely stored on disk.  How
> else you suggest to do this, except by a special command?

There must be a misunderstanding between us. The question appears when I 
try to kill the buffer. I don't see any connection with "safely storing 
on disk". What's more, this question is asked even if I try to kill the 
buffer right after storing it safely on disk.

I ask this on user list, because there may be a substantial lack of 
knowledge on my side, which may be suplemented by experienced Emacs users.

I suggest to do it as it is currently done, without bothering user with 
a question, which they always answer with "yes".

Jarek

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Barry Margolin]

In article <mailman.7173.1385478804.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
 Jarek Czekalski <jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl> wrote:

> W dniu 2013-11-25 18:07, Eli Zaretskii pisze:
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:52:10 +0100
> >> From: Jarek Czekalski <jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl>
> >>
> >> I don't see a point of "buffer still has clients, kill it" message.
> > The second one explains the reason quite clearly, I think.  You need
> > to release the client when the file is safely stored on disk.  How
> > else you suggest to do this, except by a special command?
> 
> There must be a misunderstanding between us. The question appears when I 
> try to kill the buffer. I don't see any connection with "safely storing 
> on disk". What's more, this question is asked even if I try to kill the 
> buffer right after storing it safely on disk.
> 
> I ask this on user list, because there may be a substantial lack of 
> knowledge on my side, which may be suplemented by experienced Emacs users.
> 
> I suggest to do it as it is currently done, without bothering user with 
> a question, which they always answer with "yes".

When you have EDITOR set to most editors, the client starts a new editor 
process, you edit the file, save it, and then exit the editor. The 
client waits for the editor to exit, then it will use the result.

But when you use emacsclient, it's not so simple. Emacs keeps on running 
after you save the file. Emacsclient is waiting for a message from emacs 
telling it that it you're done, so it should exit, and then its client 
application can use the result. You do this with the server-edit (C-x #) 
command.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Jarek Czekalski]

W dniu 2013-11-26 16:55, Barry Margolin pisze:
> When you have EDITOR set to most editors, the client starts a new editor
> process, you edit the file, save it, and then exit the editor. The
> client waits for the editor to exit, then it will use the result.
>
> But when you use emacsclient, it's not so simple. Emacs keeps on running
> after you save the file. Emacsclient is waiting for a message from emacs
> telling it that it you're done, so it should exit, and then its client
> application can use the result. You do this with the server-edit (C-x #)
> command.

Barry, that definitely helps to understand the idea. But still it's not 
clear why the things done in server-edit command couldn't be done during 
kill-buffer. The user request is "close the file". They shouldn't have 
to choose between server-edit and kill-buffer.

The user experience is as follows:
1. a shortcut is bound to kill-this-buffer
2. a buffer is edited throught emacsclient
3. user wants to kill the buffer with the shortcut he always uses for 
that or using "File / Close" menu option

So far you both didn't give any justification for the confirmation 
message. If things stay this way we should assume that this message is 
unnecessary and should be removed.

Jarek

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Ian van der Neut]

For what it's worth, my use case where I run into this message is as
follows:

I have a function:

(defun kill-buffer-delete-frame ()
  "Kill the current buffer and delete the frame its in."
  (interactive)
  (if (kill-buffer) (delete-frame))
)

And a key bound to it:
(global-set-key (kbd "C-c c") 'kill-buffer-delete-frame)

I run into this message, seemingly unnecessary when I want to kill the
buffer and close the frame it's in. should I call server-edit somewhere in
that function to get rid of it? From the server-edit documentation it seems
that it only kills the buffer if it didn't exist when loaded with
emacsclient. I run emacsclient primarily with the --no-wait option btw,

Thank you,

Ian.


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Jarek Czekalski
<jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl>wrote:

>
> W dniu 2013-11-26 16:55, Barry Margolin pisze:
>
>  When you have EDITOR set to most editors, the client starts a new editor
>> process, you edit the file, save it, and then exit the editor. The
>> client waits for the editor to exit, then it will use the result.
>>
>> But when you use emacsclient, it's not so simple. Emacs keeps on running
>> after you save the file. Emacsclient is waiting for a message from emacs
>> telling it that it you're done, so it should exit, and then its client
>> application can use the result. You do this with the server-edit (C-x #)
>> command.
>>
>
> Barry, that definitely helps to understand the idea. But still it's not
> clear why the things done in server-edit command couldn't be done during
> kill-buffer. The user request is "close the file". They shouldn't have to
> choose between server-edit and kill-buffer.
>
> The user experience is as follows:
> 1. a shortcut is bound to kill-this-buffer
> 2. a buffer is edited throught emacsclient
> 3. user wants to kill the buffer with the shortcut he always uses for that
> or using "File / Close" menu option
>
> So far you both didn't give any justification for the confirmation
> message. If things stay this way we should assume that this message is
> unnecessary and should be removed.
>
> Jarek
>
>
>


-- 
One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null
word.
-- Excerpt from the notebooks of Lazarus Long, from Robert Heinlein's "Time
Enough for Love"

RE: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Ludwig, Mark]

> From: Ian van der Neut, Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:43 AM
> 
> For what it's worth, my use case where I run into this message is as
> follows:
> 
> I have a function:
> 
> (defun kill-buffer-delete-frame ()
>   "Kill the current buffer and delete the frame its in."
>   (interactive)
>   (if (kill-buffer) (delete-frame))
> )
> 
> And a key bound to it:
> (global-set-key (kbd "C-c c") 'kill-buffer-delete-frame)
> 
> I run into this message, seemingly unnecessary when I want to kill the
> buffer and close the frame it's in. should I call server-edit somewhere in
> that function to get rid of it? From the server-edit documentation it seems
> that it only kills the buffer if it didn't exist when loaded with
> emacsclient. I run emacsclient primarily with the --no-wait option btw,

-and-

> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Jarek Czekalski wrote:
> 
> >
> > W dniu 2013-11-26 16:55, Barry Margolin pisze:
> >
> >  When you have EDITOR set to most editors, the client starts a new editor
> >> process, you edit the file, save it, and then exit the editor. The
> >> client waits for the editor to exit, then it will use the result.
> >>
> >> But when you use emacsclient, it's not so simple. Emacs keeps on running
> >> after you save the file. Emacsclient is waiting for a message from emacs
> >> telling it that it you're done, so it should exit, and then its client
> >> application can use the result. You do this with the server-edit (C-x #)
> >> command.
> >>
> >
> > Barry, that definitely helps to understand the idea. But still it's not
> > clear why the things done in server-edit command couldn't be done during
> > kill-buffer. The user request is "close the file". They shouldn't have to
> > choose between server-edit and kill-buffer.
> >
> > The user experience is as follows:
> > 1. a shortcut is bound to kill-this-buffer
> > 2. a buffer is edited throught emacsclient
> > 3. user wants to kill the buffer with the shortcut he always uses for that
> > or using "File / Close" menu option
> >
> > So far you both didn't give any justification for the confirmation
> > message. If things stay this way we should assume that this message is
> > unnecessary and should be removed.

I've been using the client-server technology for over a
decade, and I've always wondered about the value of this
prompt.

When this thread started, I thought the prompt was perhaps
asking whether to notify the client that I finished editing
this file, but based on experimentation on both Windows and
Solaris, that is not the case: killing the buffer (via
(kill-buffer)) releases the client.

I wonder if the original RMS comment was long enough ago
that Emacs did not prompt before killing a buffer with
unsaved modifications...?

As it stands now, if I try to kill a buffer with unsaved
modifications, I get a prompt making me confirm that I want
to throw away the changes, which seems like enough to me.
The extra prompt because the buffer has a client waiting for
it seems redundant.  Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Mark

Re: point of "buffer still has clients" message

[Barry Margolin]

In article <mailman.7255.1385566785.10748.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>,
 "Ludwig, Mark" <ludwig.mark@siemens.com> wrote:

> I wonder if the original RMS comment was long enough ago
> that Emacs did not prompt before killing a buffer with
> unsaved modifications...?

Emacs has been prompting about that for as long as I've been using it, 
over 30 years. It was in ITS EMACS, Multics Emacs, and every other clone 
I've encountered.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***