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Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.3.0 Cc: 24510@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 24 19:26:19 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqiL-0000xp-L7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 19:26:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34866 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqiK-0000QI-5s for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:26:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33943) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqiD-0000QD-UK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:26:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqiA-00042V-KN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; 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Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:25:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.133]:65522) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bnqhD-0006DJ-3p for 24510@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 13:25:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [18.189.53.55] ([18.189.53.55]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue005) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LhzVu-1b9Vf82vWU-00nDci; Sat, 24 Sep 2016 19:24:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83twd5b4yr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ibQdUtt4YNyL1zeX8brPvDi0bxkwdlt3KCIW5tpFKhjEhmnSHME 1E3rMmU6i4ZbpVUb/ZAqe7I3cc38L/jsVcgmb0dT67yw/jZHIJqfsTQWaSNWeI5+UG4Sgx3 seJqAOZvjERYlVx4Qd1eu0FdkTQOZm43fFcMI8uwXU4tQz8LcrNlI5CmzguDL1USYAGH5FB XYWTAKwp+hdRopjcAcBsg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:+5SFcRvanrE=:xY5c0r+wKlJAn47II3qRmg Eje9CVRkOPJav6eDhL5MfR3Xmr+qYR2/VRoANwt8DKbY4Kj70rvPMVYMFusCtaZQrrF0pqxGx lqxB0ocmXRJq0Vqm5q2H04U9gcHw1ZBrS1UI8OL18tWLs+PV6p6cHxPiV8dxANSxQ5eRUk/oF ReKcOSfVWK8THalgV4u5emkQcDwlZaQig7cqRntF9APgj5uxnzNBx0FBDs9cMqAkIKnPJ5miu ymO/5CCUa83evXoG+oHZHoj/DWeKPGCTd8+g7CFirlZZBdJIf3q7qXI9MhN+2nAQDrrDm7n+R mWFJ5ebyIiE6FDhdXTExYneS5R3MUkjTTlLGiYsOR/6CNcE0bwF25xMAXgBZPP9+5DIQNMGvV j6S6bUyYQ1MRHwz/hKhcnK8kNY/8noeIhVCJlsEtgNER11gOLMPUdK5MXV8j2w/iCRwMI4Sbj r6eCsfVCBeeEdq3KTVDQbMFzXEw4s1yfM9Kg4qVwTMLXZDiAl8MnPjsM/qDIKue22G7DUKfUS xV4hSXyFY29dKvwvwRQ+4Vu0QAuk3kY/4ZtKqOFepm5+TezMJglZsiIpRXXCXKFUqoKFiSczP 1qhMhs6mOpb/sRDr6qmTfKtEy9gVzH70GkOn/LF+cyfbDsa6nMBWi8ecuRPdK2gYGpVh3RiHf u/3UfjiqFpBroPK/G6asvLSZb/pF/N5kWBKSdLhArgtVmP50x9uB3wuRmA30lkAIP6oo= X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:123647 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --k754GnbUxcM064qPpu9eIOsAgvuajbTrQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mu52rhBvBEhVxXLUcsEWCBQmaiXoEppbA"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit--Claudel?= To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 24510@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24510: 25.1; Info: searching for ` does not find what looks like ` References: <<6905ca6f-0573-4a2b-b346-d5df47862e09@default> <<83intneq2g.fsf@gnu.org> <<7f9c8f95-a04d-4e94-9c17-8a348bf89215@default> <<83d1jvds1t.fsf@gnu.org> <83mviycxse.fsf@gnu.org> <8f6d6767-e5f4-79cc-ac3f-199cc58e92e2@gmail.com> <83fuopdaf2.fsf@gnu.org> <0913a9f7-519f-e48a-3132-3d1b16267851@gmail.com> <83twd5b4yr.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83twd5b4yr.fsf@gnu.org> --mu52rhBvBEhVxXLUcsEWCBQmaiXoEppbA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2016-09-24 13:08, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Cc: 24510@debbugs.gnu.org From: Cl=C3=A9ment Pit--Claudel >> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:30:07 -0400 >>=20 >> I'm not sure it makes sense to equate "better" and "worse" with >> more or less coverage. Is Consolas worse than Courier New in >> terms of number of characters supported? Certainly. But then why >> is Emacs not defaulting to MingLiu or NSimSun? They are both >> monospace, both available in recent releases of Microsoft Windows, >> and they both cover multiple East-Asian scripts, (Courier New >> doesn't). On my system, MingLiu supports 28955 glyphs; over 23 >> times as many as Courier New. >=20 > Not just the number of characters matters: the number of Unicode=20 > blocks also matters, maybe even more. Each block is some script, so=20 > supporting less blocks means less scripts supported by the default=20 > font. Emacs will have then look for a different font, which makes=20 > less pleasant display, creates text alignment problems, etc. Thanks for the explanation. But MingLiu supports 34 blocks, while Courier= New supports 23. In particular, MingLiu has support for traditional Chi= nese and Japanese Hiragana and Katakana, which Courier New lacks. >> Do we have evidence that users of Emacs on Windows write >> significant amounts of code in Arabic, to the point that we would >> want to use Courier New as the default, instead of as a fallback? >> If so, do we have evidence that more code is written in Emacs in >> Arabic than in Chinese and Japanese? And finally, do we have >> evidence that users of scripts that Consolas does not support >> prefer having Courier New as the default, rather than Consolas with >> a fallback to Courier New, or MingLiu? >=20 > I'm not sure I understand where these questions go. We don't have=20 > evidence either way, so the issues you raise cannot help us make the=20 > decision. The question was whether we had evidence in one way, and you answered it;= thanks! I don't know about either way, though: we do have evidence that many othe= r editors don't do the same thing as we do. > I personally consider Consolas worse than Courier New, because=20 > Consolas's coverage is clearly biased towards European scripts. True. But Courier is biased too. In fact, virtually all programming fon= ts are biased in that way, maybe as an unfortunate artifact of most progr= amming languages themselves being biased towards ASCII. In selecting the= default Emacs font, we're trying to ensure that users have an agreeable = experience: if most of what they look at in a monospace font is covered b= y ASCII, then it's not clear to me that it makes sense to select a monosp= ace font based on coverage only. >> I'm not too familiar with editors on Windows. Do many of them >> default to Courier New? AFAICT Netbeans apparently does, but Atom >> doesn't (it uses Consolas), Visual Studio doesn't (it uses >> Consolas), Sublime Text doesn't (it uses Consolas), Eclipse doesn't >> (it changed from Courier New to Consolas in 2011), and Notepad++ >> doesn't (it changed from Courier New to Source Code Pro in 2015). >> What makes things that are acceptable for so many other editors >> non-starters for us? >=20 > One reason is that Emacs has a wider range of different > applications, where being able to support as many languages and > scripts as possible is more important than in Studio or even Vim. > E.g., at least some of the editors you mention are never used as > email/news clients or Web browsers, where the ability to support as > many scripts as possible is important. Do many of these applications require a monospace font? Eww now defaults= to a proportional face, doesn't it? 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