From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "David L" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs's popularity (was: Distributed Maintenance for Emacs) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:53:55 -0800 Message-ID: References: <2103fd36-c5cd-4e8d-a74f-34697a369934@a26g2000prf.googlegroups.com> <003101c954de$f95a3000$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87skop8cc7.fsf@iki.fi> <20081215210907.GB3848@groll.co.za> <00aa01c95f00$fc27b830$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <006f01c96139$2c2da9b0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1229705714 24637 80.91.229.12 (19 Dec 2008 16:55:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:55:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 19 17:56:18 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LDidz-0002Yz-0l for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:56:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45710 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LDicm-0004Af-QQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:52 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LDicR-0004AG-UU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:31 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LDicQ-0004A4-T0 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:31 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47095 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LDicQ-0004A1-PL for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:30 -0500 Original-Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.158]:24048) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LDicO-0006Hk-St for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:29 -0500 Original-Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l26so461525fgb.30 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=nQrTbhiwZ5Rhr+xrJ7is/YDaCYAKR1T0sh9S8ILKnc4=; b=iXI1dIr0gHEJtYEK8pue2oharHbf5xk0K5v/v6q/N/e0RUe4iLL+Aw8OIcvf5qmFsZ 0HDxMlOzx7pRBrInHmnbMGQWeNMIPMeMlk1qHPAN9LRBD33PnnnjmbrSFegsmLnK4k+C uIDZddb/KnoACniQxVKt668xoYs0D7Ko2BEEU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=jsEuVl8Cgu/kXuDxqI1OwkiwSgFOjcgWRGu7iw2Dv1B8ckIq6Ncf0NPCQ3DGHJSBFR L9Uw+mNvwyjihEnWaCZdZQIyiHtAmT+BPV5yllnR4DowNFZcmk1IGR948ai1gfbv+gpV VN2T2IQmZw6Gy0hHG38H3sfAnsCdghHv39Qns= Original-Received: by 10.86.59.2 with SMTP id h2mr1935276fga.73.1229705666210; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.86.91.1 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:53:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <006f01c96139$2c2da9b0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:60858 Archived-At: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Drew Adams wrote: >> > Why the need to make Emacs the most popular? It's good to >> > make Emacs better, but what's the popularity contest about? >> > Perhaps Americans on average listen to >> > Britney Spears more than Mozart or Muddy Waters. So what? >> >> A tool with a shrinking user base also has a shrinking pool >> of potential developers that will continue to make it better. >> Fewer developers to make it better will make it less competitive >> with other tools causing it to lose more users. And so on. >> There are also fewer people to file >> bug reports and help other users with problems. > > You miss the point. No one has argued that Emacs should be unpopular or that > unpopularity is better than popularity. No one has said that having fewer users > and developers is better than having more. > > I said "Why the need to make Emacs _the most_ popular?". And I argued against > chasing popularity for its own sake, as opposed to trying to improve Emacs - a > difference in aim. I agree, it doesn't need to be the "most popular" as a goal in itself. But if the reason that it is not the most popular is usability, features, and bugs (as opposed to a different target audience or different goals), then that is a problem. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, but it is the reason given by new developers at my company for not adopting it despite tutorials on its use. Obviously, emacs primary goal is not to be an IDE but it does have a lot of great features as an editor and I like using it as an IDE more than any other that I've tried including eclipse and kdevelop. But that's because the the editor is very good and the other IDE features are marginally good enough or I don't care about them. Other people at my company care more about things like ECB features (which isn't even part of the standard emacs) than I do, and I have to admit that I would probably bail on emacs too if I cared more about ECB, completion, etc. > >> Another reason that is would be nice if it was growing in popularity >> is to give people like me some ammunition when many people >> in my company are saying emacs is obsolete and I should start >> using eclipse. > > Let them use Eclipse. Learn from Eclipse. Improve Emacs using Eclipse as > inspiration, if that's appropriate. > > If you want to help people learn how Emacs can help them, then show them (and > argue from) the specific merits of Emacs. Show and describe Emacs features. > Don't try to sell them on Emacs because it is the most popular. > I tried... they found ECB inadequate and difficult to set up and use and the gdb interface buggy (I should mention at this point that I believe the emacs gdb guy is one of the most responsive open source developers I've ever dealt with, so this should in no way be taken to reflect negatively on him). > Trying to persuade others to use Emacs because of its relative popularity is a > misguided approach. I don't know many good developers who would be persuaded to > use a tool just because of its popularity. Talk to them about features, not > popularity. I'm not trying to persuade them to use it based on its popularity. I'm trying to justify my continued use of it despite poor competitiveness as an IDE. Basically they don't care about the things that I really like about emacs and I am willing to live with its shortcomings as an IDE whereas they are not. But I do think it is fair for a company to require proficiency in one or two of the more popular tools. It means a higher chance that new hires will already have experience with the tools and a broader base of users to ask for help and developers to improve it. > >> There is something to be said for standardizing tools within >> a company. > > Is there? Depends what you mean. If you mean standards, yes. If you mean how > tools interface, yes. > > But if you mean which tools an individual uses to accomplish tasks such as > editing, email, etc., then no, I'm not convinced. > Look, I had this same argument with my management, and I was on your side. But they had some good points. Training and support for tools costs time and money. If I have a problem with a tool, it's nice if IT or somebody can help me. > >> I always get frustrated when I sit down with somebody to help them debug >> something and don't know my way around eclipse and I know they feel >> the same with emacs. > > So learn to use Eclipse. Do you need Emacs to be _the most popular_ just so you > don't need to learn Eclipse? I think eclipse sucks. It does't make sense for me to learn it for the 5% of my time that I spend working with other people. And because I am very productive at writing and debugging code, there is no serious pressure for me to learn eclipse (yet). >> If a company forces developers to use a certain >> tool or a few more popular tools (which many companies do), it's >> like people are forced to listen to Britney Spears (to use your >> analogy). > > Uh, and that's a good thing? No, that's a horrible thing. But it happens. > If you're an Emacs lover, then it's about improving Emacs. If you're an Eclipse > lover, then it's about improving Eclipse. (And I assume that one can be both.) > Improvement, not popularity. Open source software is different than your music analogy. Popularity tends to help to improve open source software. There is a positive feedback loop between popularity and improvement... there are other effects that can dampen this feedback, so it's not the only factor. Popularity for the sake of popularity is bad, but prioritizing features and bugs that are contributing to reduced popularity might improve emacs faster. Cheers... David PS - Does emacs have a feature request and bug reporting system like bugzilla yet? I heard rumors that it might be getting one. With respect to this discussion, it would be nice if when emacs chokes during a demonstration of its features, I could point to the bugzilla page that shows the problem has been reported and is being worked on and is a blocker for the release of version x.y which is scheduled to be release on such and such a date.