From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:29:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390581019 13138 80.91.229.3 (24 Jan 2014 16:30:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org To: martin rudalics Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 24 17:30:26 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jeD-00070A-8D for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 17:30:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47554 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jeC-0007BN-PP for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:24 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40329) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdz-0006ug-4b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:18 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdr-0006wj-Ea for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:11 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:48926) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdr-0006vO-BP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdp-000308-TV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:30:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139058096711470 (code B ref 16038); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2014 16:29:27 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdF-0002yu-UN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:29:26 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:20303) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdC-0002yk-V8 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:29:23 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0OGTLn7029899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:22 GMT Original-Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0OGTKeU013533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:21 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0OGTK1d000432; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:20 GMT In-Reply-To: <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:83944 Archived-At: > The same author wrote in http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D8= 368 >=20 > Sounds good to me. My only proposal in that regard was to create an > alias with a better name (e.g. `...-help-...'), and deprecate > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to encourage use of the new name. >=20 > martin, who couldn't resist Yes, I said: Probably we will need to leave the original name for the current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something with "help" in the name, and then the original name deprecated, that would be better. (I think that's part of what you suggest.) And create a new name for the temp-without-the-help-stuff case. If you read the whole thread for bug #8368 then you will understand. Is the current discussion about fixing bug #8368? If you fix that problem as requested, great. I'm all in favor of what was requested in bug #8368. The name of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is not good. That macro has been abused for a long time by stuffing help-related stuff into it. That does not mean that we shouldn't have a macro that does what `with-output-to-temp-buffer' does. And as noted above, users should be encouraged, over time, to use the new, "help"-related name. If you have a complete fix for bug #8368, fine - please go for it. That is not what I think I am seeing in the bug #16038 thread. Fixing bug #8368 includes not only renaming `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to something like `with-output-to-help-buffer' - AND fixing its doc to reflect what it really does - it is about help, but ALSO doing the same for any other `*-temp-*' things that really are `-*help*-' things. And, in particular, ALSO create real temporary-buffer facilities, including a real `with-output-to-temp-buffer' (but renamed, to avoid confusion), unencumbered by help-related stuff. IOW, fix the names and doc of the misnamed `*-temp-*' things to reflect the fact that they are about help. AND create real temporary-buffer things that are unrelated to help. I stressed the bit about creating real temporary-buffer things: The point of the last part is that there is a need for creating and using temporary buffers. That should never have been co-opted for help, but now that it is we should fix it properly: (a) call a spade a spade and (b) create new macros for really dealing with temporary buffers. And a year later... Can we please move forward on fixing this bug? There is lots of stuff in a "temp" buffer now that has nothing to do with a temporary buffer. All of the special help link and navigation commands should be reserved for a help mode that is _derived_ from a (minimal) temporary buffer mode. And later... I was pretty clear that the names are not what is most important to me. What matters most is to have a macro that does only the non-help stuff, separate from the macro that does also the help stuff. And this, especially pertinent to the current discussion: Deprecation does not mean immediate desupport, and it might not ever imply desupport. It means that what is deprecated _might_ be desupported at some time in the future. So users of the old name are not impacted. It's just a heads-up ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to users. They are forewarned that they might want to update the name sooner rather than later. But they _need not_ do so until desupport happens, if it ever does. The new, preferred name is what will be documented and increasingly used for new code etc. Can you explain how bug #16038 relates to bug #8368? Is the latter being fixed by the fix by the fix for the former? Yes, I would like to see bug #8368 fixed. And I notice that some of what was pointed out in the #8368 report seems to be rediscovered now for bug #16038. #8368 is still a bug, AFAIK.