From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: EMACS=t Joy and Happiness Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:23 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <87tvqw4w8s.fsf@russet.org.uk> <6443412a-5803-d9c0-1ef3-ece7f49c43e1@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527271052 30774 195.159.176.226 (25 May 2018 17:57:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 17:57:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 Cc: 20484@debbugs.gnu.org, Emacs-Devel devel , 20202@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , Phillip Lord To: Van L Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 25 19:57:28 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMGy0-0007un-3H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 19:57:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46222 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMH07-0008Pq-AU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:59:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44163) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMGzx-0008PT-Uo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:59:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMGzu-0006V7-HQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:59:29 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:46800) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMGzu-0006Uf-99 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:59:26 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEA9160780; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id AugcRpsFklUu; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32BA1607B7; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id DskptPQzmHoR; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB702160780; Fri, 25 May 2018 10:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECH In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225717 Archived-At: On 05/24/2018 07:25 PM, Van L wrote: > Ask them for what Tesla or Uber or Facebook or Google use I just checked the first company mentioned on your list (Tesla) and it=20 is posting want-ads that ask for Red Hat expertise. Unfortunately I=20 can't disclose what I privately know about Tesla, but suffice it to say=20 that like most other successful companies they use a wide variety of=20 systems in their work, and not all of these systems are the very latest=20 version of everything. > I can understand the excuse for long-term-support system contracts but = not for the poster=E2=80=99s student environment. > > You refer to lazy privileged people I'm afraid there's a misunderstanding here. At UCLA we have a wide=20 variety of systems running many different OSes. Servers at UCLA run many=20 operating systems; it's quite a gamut, as we have a lot of departments=20 and research groups, most of which focus on areas other than computer=20 science and who have a lot of software of varying quality that they=20 don't necessarily have time or budget to upgrade or maintain=20 extensively. The courses I teach are assigned to a batch of RHEL 7=20 servers that support many different courses, not just mine. I do not=20 specify or maintain the server OSes; that's a responsibility of the=20 operations staff of the School of Engineering, and they're busy people=20 who do not report to me. To help keep my course material up-to-date I install copies of the=20 latest released versions of Emacs (currently 25.3), Bash (currently=20 4.4.19), and many other free software programs. (I don't overwrite=20 /usr/bin of course; I install into a separate directory that students=20 put into their PATH settings.) So it'll be little trouble to me or my=20 students if Emacs requires Bash 4.4 or later. When I mentioned RHEL 7, I=20 wasn't simply talking about my personal situation; I was observing that=20 requiring Bash 4.4 would be a hassle for people installing newer Emacs=20 versions onto Red Hat servers, as it would require these people to also=20 install newer Bash versions. If it's important for Emacs to require Bash=20 4.4 of course Emacs can do so; still, I expect that the overall hassle=20 to Emacs users of requiring Bash 4.4 still outweighs the relatively=20 minor technical benefit in question. Sorry, but that's how things often=20 work in production software. With all this in mind you might want to rethink your comments that among=20 other things seem to imply that the staff at UCLA consists of "lazy=20 privileged people".