From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Opaque objects and Emacs documentation Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 22:25:42 +0300 Message-ID: References: <20200712184908.13140.5739@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20200712184909.BBC61209B1@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <7bf4d6ef-c0ec-43dc-ad5d-f6e81422ad90@yandex.ru> <83zh84m5ws.fsf@gnu.org> <3dd1c224-69b2-40af-5b2e-43a310253632@yandex.ru> <83tuybmtxs.fsf@gnu.org> <859f594b-1343-6d26-e1ac-7157c44eb56c@yandex.ru> <83a6zyk4tt.fsf@gnu.org> <6edffb7d-7708-534f-93ad-bf9180f5e0ed@yandex.ru> <835zamjsvk.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40134"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: Emacs developers To: John Yates , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 17 21:26:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jwW00-000AMH-PJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 21:26:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36728 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwVzz-00007j-Rg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:26:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53790) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwVzQ-00088z-BG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::634]:33385) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwVzO-0005Dn-Ns; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:25:48 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id n26so12021242ejx.0; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:25:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cV3GqJv8OVExbB3ntNBmj8HZvZTP+AdlRLKBqCtj8Es=; b=AjJDoWOdCEdWPFFvFxQqI4hEXmIhBydFclR7jdJp3MnM8Dy2D3+iFUZmhwKJdwQTki iBb7Q6zgQZxQx+J+RFmwcLMnDYdm11pQPVcfy8HWh1zP2LnvCHrP5pyj1zk9aj7vi5sy 54VBWrBbXFS3LpHQ1A9+BGCaIC97bg3t8H593kTiciRR2pe+4bYVc4tRakZ7I8WWhnmw RRhK+7GdA/bMHg41FI4uQT1QlKdv5olAn9LKdNonhiFtdhUGTYK50NVfOA+u1PtIhtGR +a2DP9LnQVjCopuYsqc1hpSzZ0H8K61O9ug3FLJXtAWzpmWizHmEXyis2aZiE3qIbdwd Z73Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cV3GqJv8OVExbB3ntNBmj8HZvZTP+AdlRLKBqCtj8Es=; b=ZR/S7b/u2R2jl0GXn4PfDdpmYUrK857/CSvcyh98hE8QD/LECvLwmkGOLF3BYQHPpG UMRxX5aSuVMykHUslmdjAuRd/QmahVskMKH5DrsWYXOfihECU3FkmXhfjbEMKq5YSOiW d1oWI2hVJf5CPLZ6xGTJBLy1MfidNU49UC4cNISUM4efFMkn18XdW9/eAzfQ6T/rFfc9 Lwxl74iaN3eknhV4TbtQOSFQpXa+reAA3n3GCSPwBsGK74QYblGRAKhANxCPgMK+8pNX 2J5H+07lJphD0HXSgJR4QJ166UHdwe7IHAL2eFXFlT9c0NtWDJIN4v/jEGNEcrw6JKSX suhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530K9uxB8HT6MUoS5+XiTYlJbsiBMDfn43Yex09L9XavT8Isbblt reMCg5qBnSh727ru/3XKhet39T21 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvfWyaJ3cGvrEmcberGFw35AHtbNvHQYc7VDvZlCeErVcrswcrM15/JlVQWf/7kn9kpafeOg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:6d4d:: with SMTP id a13mr9717101ejt.146.1595013944423; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id qc16sm8677362ejb.33.2020.07.17.12.25.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:25:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::634; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x634.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253047 Archived-At: On 17.07.2020 19:56, John Yates wrote: > OTOH I have been programming for just shy of 50 years.  Over that time I > have continually > increased the size and scope of projects I could tackle primarily by > looking for ways to > build and compose ever better abstractions.  Sometimes that has taken > the form of adopting > a new programming language, sometimes a new methodology or disciple. > > Conversely, one of the banes of my existence has been leaky > abstractions.  For better > or worse, based maining on the untyped nature of lisp and its culture of > describing how > to interpret structures of various shapes, my overriding impression of > the lisp world in > general and of elisp in particular is that they are rife with leaky > abstractions. > > I commend Dmitry's desire to provide an opaque abstraction for a > project. Thanks, John. > Sadly, in > this instance I suspect that such an effort is an attempt to swim > against an impossibly > strong tide.  (If you cannot beat them, join them :-) I don't know if it's true. project.el has seen a certain level of adoption for the last few years, and some very nice contributions recently. All without using the approach to documentation that Eli is advocating for.