Consistent vanilla Emacs

Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Dear all,

I've been working on making vanilla Emacs (i.e. no packages installed) more
consistent and elegant in terms of faces/colors/fonts/size. You can see some
screenshots at https://github.com/rougier/elegant-emacs.

Among the screenshots, there's a proposal for a revamped splash screen. I'm not
subscribed to this mailing list (please cc me) but I've tried to follow the
long discussion on the archived mailing list, trying to take various comments
into account (I probably have missed some). The result [1] is kind of minimal
with only essential information (for a new user) and can be easily adapted for
terminal or GUI version. The most important information is the key to type
(ctrl-h) to go to a welcome screen [2] with essential information.

These mockups have been made using org-mode. Probably this can be made
differently and more efficiently but I'm not too familiar with Emacs internal.

[1] : https://raw.githubusercontent.com/rougier/elegant-emacs/master/screenshots/screenshot-0.png

[2] : https://raw.githubusercontent.com/rougier/elegant-emacs/master/screenshots/screenshot-1.png


Nicolas

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Nicolas,

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> I've been working on making vanilla Emacs (i.e. no packages installed) more
> consistent and elegant in terms of faces/colors/fonts/size. You can see some
> screenshots at https://github.com/rougier/elegant-emacs.

Thank you for working on this.  As I've already told you in private, I
like some of the fundamental ideas in your proposal, and think it has a
fresh look we could definitely use in GNU Emacs itself.

Of course, there are some details we need to work out, technically and
in terms of what information to present to the user.[1]  RMS has said we
need to include copying and warranty information on the splash screen,
for example.  There are also considerations of aesthatics and
consistency.

For background, there is a thread on a better splash screen here:

    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg01733.html

> These mockups have been made using org-mode. Probably this can be made
> differently and more efficiently but I'm not too familiar with Emacs internal.

I think making a prototype in Org-mode is not a bad idea.  But we can't
load Org-mode by default, because it is too big and would increase
startup times.  So eventually we will need to write patches for Emacs
which produce the desired results.

I will try to find the time to study your proposal more fully in the
next couple of days.  Here are some initial observations from the
screenshots:

1. Currently, the consensus seems to be that the menu and tool bar are
   important to have.  So we can't disable them by default.  We would
   like to make them look better though, but I don't know if there is
   any work being done on that.

2. You seem to have moved the mode-line to the top.  I don't have an
   opinion of that yet.

3. We currently don't ship any fonts with GNU Emacs.  Maybe we should
   consider doing that?  It seems to me that many other applications do.
   Or maybe we should introduce a stronger set of default fonts for
   different systems.

4. I like the margins you set on the windows.  But it is less efficient
   than not using them, because you can see less text on your screen.
   That makes me doubt that it's a good choice functionally, even if it
   is aesthetically pleasing.  Is there an option to enable this only
   for certain buffers?

(BTW, your `elegant.el' includes things like setting `indent-tabs-mode'
to nil.  Could you please separate those parts from the graphical
changes?  For example by moving them to a separate file.  That will
facilitate this discussion, I think.)

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Footnotes:
[1] Nicolas has agreed to sign the copyright assignment papers, and has
     been sent the form to get the process started.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Thanks for this feedback, I'll wait until you have looked at the code. In the
meantime, I'll try to separate default color/face settings from other
stuff. Concerning the mode line at the top, it brings all kind of problem (for
example when a mode wants to use the header line) and maybe it's not a good
idea for a new user.

For the font, it would be nice to have a default font shipped with Emacs but I
imagine this will make the binary heavier and you need a font license that is
compatible. The Roboto Mono font I used is licensed under an Apache 2.0 (which
I think is compatible) while, for example, the Fira Code (a nice programming
font) is licensed under a SIL Open Font License. I think it is also compatible
but I'm not quite sure. For this last one, one advantage is that it is a
variable font meaning all the weights are in a single file.


Nicolas

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Nicolas,
>
> "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:
>
>> I've been working on making vanilla Emacs (i.e. no packages installed) more
>> consistent and elegant in terms of faces/colors/fonts/size. You can see some
>> screenshots at https://github.com/rougier/elegant-emacs.
>
> Thank you for working on this.  As I've already told you in private, I
> like some of the fundamental ideas in your proposal, and think it has a
> fresh look we could definitely use in GNU Emacs itself.
>
> Of course, there are some details we need to work out, technically and
> in terms of what information to present to the user.[1]  RMS has said we
> need to include copying and warranty information on the splash screen,
> for example.  There are also considerations of aesthatics and
> consistency.
>
> For background, there is a thread on a better splash screen here:
>
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg01733.html
>
>> These mockups have been made using org-mode. Probably this can be made
>> differently and more efficiently but I'm not too familiar with Emacs internal.
>
> I think making a prototype in Org-mode is not a bad idea.  But we can't
> load Org-mode by default, because it is too big and would increase
> startup times.  So eventually we will need to write patches for Emacs
> which produce the desired results.
>
> I will try to find the time to study your proposal more fully in the
> next couple of days.  Here are some initial observations from the
> screenshots:
>
> 1. Currently, the consensus seems to be that the menu and tool bar are
>    important to have.  So we can't disable them by default.  We would
>    like to make them look better though, but I don't know if there is
>    any work being done on that.
>
> 2. You seem to have moved the mode-line to the top.  I don't have an
>    opinion of that yet.
>
> 3. We currently don't ship any fonts with GNU Emacs.  Maybe we should
>    consider doing that?  It seems to me that many other applications do.
>    Or maybe we should introduce a stronger set of default fonts for
>    different systems.
>
> 4. I like the margins you set on the windows.  But it is less efficient
>    than not using them, because you can see less text on your screen.
>    That makes me doubt that it's a good choice functionally, even if it
>    is aesthetically pleasing.  Is there an option to enable this only
>    for certain buffers?
>
> (BTW, your `elegant.el' includes things like setting `indent-tabs-mode'
> to nil.  Could you please separate those parts from the graphical
> changes?  For example by moving them to a separate file.  That will
> facilitate this discussion, I think.)
>
> Best regards,
> Stefan Kangas
>
> Footnotes:
> [1] Nicolas has agreed to sign the copyright assignment papers, and has
>      been sent the form to get the process started.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Tassilo Horn]

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> The Roboto Mono font I used is licensed under an Apache 2.0 (which I
> think is compatible) while, for example, the Fira Code (a nice
> programming font) is licensed under a SIL Open Font License.

Another nice font is JetBrains Mono which is also licensed under Apache
2.0 and like Fira Code it has tons of programming ligatures.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 14.05.2020 17:20, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> 1. Currently, the consensus seems to be that the menu and tool bar are
>     important to have.  So we can't disable them by default.  We would
>     like to make them look better though, but I don't know if there is
>     any work being done on that.

I think the main toolbars look fine in GNOME, the one in the scratch 
buffer for sure. Maybe I'd like it to be less tall, but that seems minor.

Do you like it, or does it not look good on your system?

> 3. We currently don't ship any fonts with GNU Emacs.  Maybe we should
>     consider doing that?  It seems to me that many other applications do.
>     Or maybe we should introduce a stronger set of default fonts for
>     different systems.

IIRC Eli said that we can't distribute fonts for our own use only, 
whatever fonts are needed the user will have to install system-wide, or 
put into ~/.fonts, at least.

It's a technical limitation, and maybe someone would like to take a shot 
at it someday.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

>> 1. Currently, the consensus seems to be that the menu and tool bar are
>>     important to have.  So we can't disable them by default.  We would
>>     like to make them look better though, but I don't know if there is
>>     any work being done on that.
>
> I think the main toolbars look fine in GNOME, the one in the scratch
> buffer for sure. Maybe I'd like it to be less tall, but that seems minor.
>
> Do you like it, or does it not look good on your system?

It looks fine, if a bit plain.  If we had a graphical designer and/or
illustrator I'm sure we could do better, though.

One improvement which I believe only requires code changes is support
for a "dark" theme.  It seems to me that a dark theme is the default for
most editors these days, and N percent of our users prefer them.  See
also Bug#11590.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Dmitry Gutov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 404 bytes --]

On 15.05.2020 01:44, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> One improvement which I believe only requires code changes is support
> for a "dark" theme.  It seems to me that a dark theme is the default for
> most editors these days, and N percent of our users prefer them.  See
> also Bug#11590.

I'm not a fan of those, but it seems fine over here if I choose a dark 
WM theme plus dark Emacs theme. See the attachment.

[-- Attachment #2: Screenshot from 2020-05-15 02-42-05.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 56878 bytes --]

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 15.05.2020 01:44, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> One improvement which I believe only requires code changes is support
>> for a "dark" theme.  It seems to me that a dark theme is the default for
>> most editors these days, and N percent of our users prefer them.  See
>> also Bug#11590.
>
> I'm not a fan of those, but it seems fine over here if I choose a dark
> WM theme plus dark Emacs theme. See the attachment.

Ah, yes, this enables a dark theme for me on GTK:

echo "[Settings]\ngtk-application-prefer-dark-theme=true" >\
  ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini

Maybe Bug#11590 should just be closed then.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Ah, yes, this enables a dark theme for me on GTK:
>
> echo "[Settings]\ngtk-application-prefer-dark-theme=true" >\
>   ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
>
> Maybe Bug#11590 should just be closed then.

On a closer look, that bug is actually about a separate issue: changing
this from Lisp in a running Emacs.  So it should remain open.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 00:21:57 +0300
> 
> > 3. We currently don't ship any fonts with GNU Emacs.  Maybe we should
> >     consider doing that?  It seems to me that many other applications do.
> >     Or maybe we should introduce a stronger set of default fonts for
> >     different systems.
> 
> IIRC Eli said that we can't distribute fonts for our own use only, 
> whatever fonts are needed the user will have to install system-wide, or 
> put into ~/.fonts, at least.

Technically, we _can_ distribute fonts, but doing so will
inconvenience the users to the degree that I think we should avoid
doing that.  Installation of fonts on the system (with implied effects
on other applications) is indeed that inconvenience.  It is true that
there are ways to make the installation local, but that is even more
of the inconvenience, IMO.

So yes, I don't think we should include fonts in our distribution.  We
could advise users to install fonts that we think will make Emacs look
good, and maybe if we do that for some time, distros will start making
those fonts available by default.  But forcing fonts on users is not
TRT, IMO.  Right now, Emacs uses as its default font the font used by
other similar applications, and I think we should continue doing that,
so as to keep Emacs's text look as in other similar applications on
the system.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and depending on
the system? Or is it already the case? In my case (OSX), the chosen system font
seems to be Monaco while the default system font is Menlo (or SF Mono if XCode
installed). Would that be possible to have an ordered list of font to try?

Nicolas


Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 00:21:57 +0300
>> 
>> > 3. We currently don't ship any fonts with GNU Emacs.  Maybe we should
>> >     consider doing that?  It seems to me that many other applications do.
>> >     Or maybe we should introduce a stronger set of default fonts for
>> >     different systems.
>> 
>> IIRC Eli said that we can't distribute fonts for our own use only, 
>> whatever fonts are needed the user will have to install system-wide, or 
>> put into ~/.fonts, at least.
>
> Technically, we _can_ distribute fonts, but doing so will
> inconvenience the users to the degree that I think we should avoid
> doing that.  Installation of fonts on the system (with implied effects
> on other applications) is indeed that inconvenience.  It is true that
> there are ways to make the installation local, but that is even more
> of the inconvenience, IMO.
>
> So yes, I don't think we should include fonts in our distribution.  We
> could advise users to install fonts that we think will make Emacs look
> good, and maybe if we do that for some time, distros will start making
> those fonts available by default.  But forcing fonts on users is not
> TRT, IMO.  Right now, Emacs uses as its default font the font used by
> other similar applications, and I think we should continue doing that,
> so as to keep Emacs's text look as in other similar applications on
> the system.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Tassilo Horn]

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and
> depending on the system? Or is it already the case?

It is the case at least on some systems.  I use Gnome and Emacs with
gsettings support and then the default font is the monospace font set in
Gnome.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:11:14 +0200
> 
> 
> Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and depending on
> the system? Or is it already the case? In my case (OSX), the chosen system font
> seems to be Monaco while the default system font is Menlo (or SF Mono if XCode
> installed). Would that be possible to have an ordered list of font to try?

AFAIK, we already have that.  If you want to propose a different order
or changes to the set we use on macOS, please show a patch.

Thanks.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Fri, 15 May 2020 13:01:12 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:

    >> From: "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>
    >> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
    >> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:11:14 +0200
    >> 
    >> 
    >> Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and depending on
    >> the system? Or is it already the case? In my case (OSX), the chosen system font
    >> seems to be Monaco while the default system font is Menlo (or SF Mono if XCode
    >> installed). Would that be possible to have an ordered list of font to try?

    Eli> AFAIK, we already have that.  If you want to propose a different order
    Eli> or changes to the set we use on macOS, please show a patch.

I get Menlo from 'emacs -Q' on macOS, not sure why Nicolas would see
anything different.

Robert

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Alan Third]

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:18:21PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 15 May 2020 13:01:12 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
> 
>     >> From: "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>
>     >> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>     >> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:11:14 +0200
>     >> 
>     >> 
>     >> Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and depending on
>     >> the system? Or is it already the case? In my case (OSX), the chosen system font
>     >> seems to be Monaco while the default system font is Menlo (or SF Mono if XCode
>     >> installed). Would that be possible to have an ordered list of font to try?
> 
>     Eli> AFAIK, we already have that.  If you want to propose a different order
>     Eli> or changes to the set we use on macOS, please show a patch.
> 
> I get Menlo from 'emacs -Q' on macOS, not sure why Nicolas would see
> anything different.

Me too. I believe the Mac port uses Monaco (and possibly versions of
the NS port which date to before Apple changed the default system
font).
-- 
Alan Third

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

I'm using the mac port version, that might be the reason.

Nicolas

Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:

> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:18:21PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote:
>> >>>>> On Fri, 15 May 2020 13:01:12 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
>> 
>>     >> From: "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>
>>     >> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>     >> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 09:11:14 +0200
>>     >> 
>>     >> 
>>     >> Can we instead choose a "decent" font among those installed and depending on
>>     >> the system? Or is it already the case? In my case (OSX), the chosen system font
>>     >> seems to be Monaco while the default system font is Menlo (or SF Mono if XCode
>>     >> installed). Would that be possible to have an ordered list of font to try?
>> 
>>     Eli> AFAIK, we already have that.  If you want to propose a different order
>>     Eli> or changes to the set we use on macOS, please show a patch.
>> 
>> I get Menlo from 'emacs -Q' on macOS, not sure why Nicolas would see
>> anything different.
>
> Me too. I believe the Mac port uses Monaco (and possibly versions of
> the NS port which date to before Apple changed the default system
> font).

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[João Távora]

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 2:12 PM Nicolas P. Rougier
<nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> wrote:

> These mockups have been made using org-mode. Probably this can be made
> differently and more efficiently but I'm not too familiar with Emacs internal.

This is very pretty, and very relevant.  It'd be nice if you could make
this a GNU ELPA package with no dependencies but the Emacs core
itself.

João

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 14.05.2020 22:41, João Távora wrote:
> This is very pretty, and very relevant.  It'd be nice if you could make
> this a GNU ELPA package with no dependencies but the Emacs core
> itself.

An improved startup-screen as an ELPA package? That doesn't sound very 
useful. It's for new users, isn't it?

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[João Távora]

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 9:14 PM Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> On 14.05.2020 22:41, João Távora wrote:
> > This is very pretty, and very relevant.  It'd be nice if you could make
> > this a GNU ELPA package with no dependencies but the Emacs core
> > itself.
>
> An improved startup-screen as an ELPA package? That doesn't sound very
> useful. It's for new users, isn't it?

Aren't some ELPA packages to be bundled with the pre-packaged
Emacs thingamabob?  And I thought it would affect other aspects
not only the startup screen.  I'd like a package that changes the
defaults to something minimalist, pretty, well-designed, that doesn't
require a ton of MELPA bells and whistles, just Emacs.

Like an opinionated .emacs where package-install is totally absent.
Call it a theme if you like.

Anyway, just my 2c.
João

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 14.05.2020 23:19, João Távora wrote:
> Aren't some ELPA packages to be bundled with the pre-packaged
> Emacs thingamabob?

But then it will either be enabled by default (effectively replacing 
whatever we have in the core now, so we might as well do it), or 
disabled, and thus failing to benefit the users who just launched Emacs 
for the first time.

 > And I thought it would affect other aspects not only the startup screen.

Let's consider this part separately, it will just confuse the discussion.

But where it simply changes a default value (like indent-tabs-mode), and 
we agree that the new value is good, we should again just change the 
default.

Re: Consistent vanilla Emacs

[Eduardo Ochs]

An alternative startup screen installable from ELPA can be useful to
new users that can get sporadic step-by-step help from old-timers.

  Cheers,
    Eduardo Ochs
    http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html
    http://angg.twu.net/emacs.html

On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 17:16, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:
>
> On 14.05.2020 22:41, João Távora wrote:
> > This is very pretty, and very relevant.  It'd be nice if you could make
> > this a GNU ELPA package with no dependencies but the Emacs core
> > itself.
>
> An improved startup-screen as an ELPA package? That doesn't sound very
> useful. It's for new users, isn't it?
>