From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 10:23:45 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> <87d3vx5cku.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291944273 2704 80.91.229.12 (10 Dec 2010 01:24:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:24:33 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 10 02:24:29 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQril-0007I4-Tg for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:24:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48609 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQril-0003qL-2r for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:24:27 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!news1.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.posted.isomediainc!news.posted.isomediainc.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:23:50 -0500 Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp In-Reply-To: <87d3vx5cku.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Original-Lines: 60 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.124.149.116 Original-X-Trace: sv3-8UqQ55hmzftW3wjSKQNrZ7kt1EzqzpsDcWLjJD83n6m1xq8XPYm6NQGqdBmI3jiNS3ci2qol9Q6EncO!DVX7QGOPEDxl2QyCyldHD2KvXczZPw6ZW/Kj7SnnxqLBwuWqCnmKKOgTe1Ipfn5PjnxZ3DzDWx73!2yFCa0aWO9xWdruDJQMB/qPkDupG X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178904 comp.emacs:100012 comp.lang.lisp:289046 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:09:16 -0500 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:77127 Archived-At: On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Wojciech Meyer posted: > Well it is certainly possible, one can use mailing list and the NEWS > file, which was suggested before. Please read the first chapter of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy to understand the flaw in that reasoning. >> This sort of thing happened in the past as well. The difference was >> that there was accountability in the past that is absent today. > What sort of acountability, I think unhappy `customers' is enough > punishment. Apparently not, if the "customers" are told that it's their fault for not being on the development list. > What kind of Emacs users are they? Isn't possible to place on every > machine a stub containing: (setq line-move-visual nil). There include people who never use emacs, except to follow the procedure that I outline (which is literally a cookbook "do these steps exactly"). I have no control or access to the machines in question. Perhaps I should have written a program to begin with. But it was so much simpler to leverage upon emacs back in the days when emacs had a reliable interface. Now that it no longer does, I'm now forced to write the program. > There is nothing wrong in being young and creative, that makes often > things better. Young people often do care more about things then Senior > Architects, they are also more flexible for changes. Yes, but they lack the wisdom and experience of their elders. This in turn leads them to address complex problems with simple solutions that backfire (sometimes disastrously). > The reason why this setting wasn't kept by default is to fix the > fundamental problem, Yeah, right. The "fundamental problem" that CTRL/A, CTRL/E, CTRL/N, CTRL/P, etc. moved to predictable places in the file no matter what the screen width, and thus could be relied upon for a cookbook procedure. We can't have predictability and reliability. We have to do pretty-pretty to be just like Word, and destroy the one attribute that made emacs superior to other choices. Bletch. This wouldn't have been a problem had the arrow keys been changed to the new semantics and CTRL-A/E/N/P been left alone. The new semantics are even arguably right for arrow keys (although I would go further and say that they should also treat tabs as the equivalent number of spaces). It isn't as if we're still in the 1970s and have keyboards without arrow keys. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.