From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:56:06 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291944069 2027 80.91.229.12 (10 Dec 2010 01:21:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 01:21:09 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 10 02:21:02 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQrfQ-00069J-6p for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:21:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53139 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQrfP-000268-GM for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:20:59 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!postnews.google.com!news2.google.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.posted.isomediainc!news.posted.isomediainc.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:56:08 -0500 Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) Original-Lines: 56 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.124.149.116 Original-X-Trace: sv3-dsLZ57sFaAhwDaW6mQBPMoZc7Y2NdHOPRyErBlVS6Ai5FgyGyIVYVGm6PI3OthaHOUzTy5SwdPRIHyC!QU9wKWmP+NBfWF0e5XsvZ9flo12fWNgGeFMsFQo3w2Nmh+3yD+FeFqNASFvX/3n8RPtVLSnSrnlI!nnjHDmBa9gabTNVVZewhw0lUws2+ X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178845 comp.emacs:100001 comp.lang.lisp:288951 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:09:16 -0500 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:77122 Archived-At: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Uday S Reddy posted: > By community ownership, I only mean that all the people that have a stake in > the system have a voice in the matter and we all feel ownership of the > system. When the community is divided, as seems to be the case on this > issue, the developers have to make a decision and move on. The problem is that nobody ever asked the existing users whether or not they wanted this global change foisted upon them. Rather, it was done unilaterally, and the individuals responsible are saying "See! Some people like it! It was a good change." This sort of thing happened in the past as well. The difference was that there was accountability in the past that is absent today. > In my humble opinion, it is > easy to argue that the current default was ill-chosen. But it is not so easy > to argue that it should be changed. If we change it, then we face all the > same issues all over again affecting the other users that are depending on > the current default. So, it seems best to leave things as they are and make > a note of all the lessons learned. I agree that we are probably screwed, and royally so. I have a new task on my list: replace emacs in the procedures for my target audience since emacs is no longer suitable for that purpose. I simply can not tell these users "make sure that you set line-move-visual to nil"; they would have no clue what that means. More likely than not, I will end up being obliged to write a program for the task; and there will be one less way those users will be exposed to emacs. One of the advantages of the "software tools" mindset of the past was that you did not have to write a program for every task. Instead, you could leverage the existing tools. That falls apart when those tools are corrupted so that they no longer can be relied upon to produce predictable results. >> But even the laymen become power-corrupted. > I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. They have a responsibility to bear > and sometimes they get carried away. Every young programmer wants to put his own mark on things. The problem is that these changes are frequently ill-considered and sometimes have bad consequences. >> Since user interface surprise is a barrier to upgrade, they make sure there >> aren't any such surprises. > Yes, that point is well-made. But, the same argument now suggests that the > default should not be changed yet again. Yup. We're probably screwed. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.