From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Fernando Botelho Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: L10n deserves to be systematized Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 14:37:53 -0300 Organization: F123 Message-ID: References: <52ebee64-0887-6039-3959-2fd5f6b5fd0a@F123.org> <838tmchf6m.fsf@gnu.org> <3001d859-43e4-7c1e-5298-2f2418c84c5b@F123.org> Reply-To: Fernando.Botelho@F123.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1494010476 15172 195.159.176.226 (5 May 2017 18:54:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 18:54:36 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , emacs-devel To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 05 20:54:32 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1d6iN4-0003oi-VN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 May 2017 20:54:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48527 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6iNA-00010M-F2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 May 2017 14:54:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46075) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6hB4-0003VB-NE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 May 2017 13:38:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6hB0-00067Q-Pq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 May 2017 13:38:02 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x241.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::241]:36807) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6hB0-00064c-Ko; Fri, 05 May 2017 13:37:58 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x241.google.com with SMTP id j13so1701350qta.3; Fri, 05 May 2017 10:37:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iOedozPoXVehna4M+aowORSWi8dCLP0n9sGmyF/PZQU=; b=N5QW5dtEyItU9yLiB8rOnLJo3XJyavGXnnv/jV5+ZBNYcz4oo2xQxhoifiXhejD2pK clL6WsVVNXievR7ZQObbMFOwSMzj7nPypB7KbVlAyBscJQ+6yL7kYtaDaxvnEPSdWL39 nP6Tvw/lnvGz8TAFAPffXV3SIW/X+ekHTCCt3EWRAoLfjm5pyQfLgLeM0K7vobFMKnjE 1KoAU77BZWPz8adAZLgUfvLcCIuNZAfaNYquc3EPp1qyt+p2hOTTLZVI6r9zalWkLwUm nh3rXu7qNa+Lxf0+Ms8VpV3zTABZl/q2c71LjnMpL/PYCeegHvfrCH5tKjwWXUxF725J zqBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iOedozPoXVehna4M+aowORSWi8dCLP0n9sGmyF/PZQU=; b=qgeinQNFneCOpdSHWMyMIOl+3cYKtk95TVw2BwjY2jBMnlbqwHdxuz0hGHI3XviRFn /s+lTHlvCiNzW+U3OrPxfvJORjCO56kK5dkNFglsH05RRaN6QStDyAMvQF57e7zOcGlY gSg10vYVEMQgPzjpnyFv7UjlL5xRg9Y98auhSzC9WZ3BJz2oBoyhS93dVZYQrTdGZb2I TlDNJziEMctz2hEM8kn8v11TXMzI3LWt3fNW7QMPlwelZP7Da8Th41cOJGKOdvbpp+Dd kFNGDWIPs1tMS+QJ8nOFQKOxbKivYaJ8AkTN3q+3TX+eEY0U6bPdTiouL54elo1g0XOA 9m9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcCBkDIV9NG1EzroMRzhZNIxpNmfT2KcnlBlh02A/tE4R0ZfkhAy B6gX5GXtco1ys6S/ X-Received: by 10.200.53.77 with SMTP id z13mr5234046qtb.184.1494005876355; Fri, 05 May 2017 10:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.100.5] ([177.220.191.239]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k64sm3530009qkd.49.2017.05.05.10.37.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 May 2017 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::241 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 May 2017 14:54:00 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:214581 Archived-At: "Maybe. But I'd focus on the GNU/FOSS translations groups that already exist in the various languages." Ok, i will do some searching around. But if you are aware of l10n groups for Portuguese, Spanish, or Arabic, please let me know. Fernando On 05/05/2017 06:29 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >> Apologies Jean-Christophe. I did not mean to imply that I had learned nothing from the interaction on the list. It is clear to me that the usual translation of interface, etc, is beyond our current resources. > I was not suggesting that, don't worry :) > >> This is what I was suggesting. A list focused on Emacs translation rather than coding. But like the github issue, we will need a GNU-approved host. > Not really. What we need is to have a process that produces good translations and then a way to deliver the translations that is compatible with the GNU project. > >> From Eli: >> "Not sure why the mailing list is not in the CC." > In CC here. > >> The Lisp reference manual is for programmers, and those usually have a much better control of English." > That's a common misconception. > > Programmers rely first on ressources in their language and then try to make sense of the rest. In the case of the Emacs/Elisp manuals the rest is a very verbose set of files and is in fact quite difficult to make sense of when you're not a native. > >> "I would propose to focus on the user manual. > In fact, I'd suggest the opposite. Emacs has already a huge volume of introductory and advanced materials on the web and in print and is thus quite accessible for non English speakers. > > The Elisp reference is simply not that widely available. > > Also, as I mentioned in an earlier mail, translators are generally good proofreaders. They can find a lot of errors, inconsistencies, hard to understand parts, etc. and translation directly contributes to native's access to a better documentation. > > But in the end, it really is up to the translators to decide what they want to work on. > >> I am still not sure what I will be using. OmegaT uses Java, and being blind, I have had bad experiences with that in the past. So I will have to check and see if it is accessible. I will ask a blind translators list I heard of. > I've had a lot of exchanges with people on the Librté 0 list and it seems OmegaT is not very accessible. But there are other tools. Emacs and its po-mode are very basic, so it's better to look for other native tools for your platform. > >> In any case, setting up the git repository and email list, and announcing it on the Emacs lists can attract some attention and possibly other translators. > Maybe. But I'd focus on the GNU/FOSS translations groups that already exist in the various languages. > > Jean-Christophe