cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Tury]

Hi,

I built cvs emacs on ubuntu 8.10. Now I have

GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.14.4)
 of 2008-12-27 on tury-8-usb
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version
11.0.10502000
Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: hu_HU.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default-enable-multibyte-characters: t

The problem is that Emacs uses too big fonts by default. More exactly
I think it scales somehow the fonts, though it shouldn't. Menus are
OK, but buffer text and tooltips and mode line come with huge fonts.

I uploaded an image about the problem: here you can see that menus are
OK, but everything else is awfully huge. A Gedit and a terminal window
is captured also to show the differences better:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2383/emacsfontscale2bd9.jpg

I think maybe the "22" in "Font: #<font-object -unknown-DejaVu Sans
Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-22-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1>" is the key (see
the image above); but where does it come from? I neither have .emacs
nor .Xdefaults when I reproduced the error for the image.

I have this problem with older cvs versions as well (at least for a
few months).

Did I do something wrong at compilation of Emacs? Does something
missing from my Ubuntu? What to check?

Maybe I have the same problem as frecon here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-803119.html?

(I can use Emacs with setting 8pt font size in .Xdefaults or using
text-scale-adjust, but I want Emacs behave correctly by default.)

Thanks,
P

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 28.12.2008 um 00:18 schrieb Peter Tury:

> Did I do something wrong at compilation of Emacs? Does something
> missing from my Ubuntu? What to check?

In KDE and GNOME there are rule settings about appropriate font  
sizes. An optimised bitmapped font for 100 DPI is larger than the  
same font for 75 DPI. When the X11 font path has the 100 DPI font  
before the 75 DPI fonts than these larger fonts are used. GNU Emacs  
23.0.60 uses libXft. When a 100 DPI display is assumed by Xft then  
quite large 75 DPI fonts might be used ...

You could add to your X defaults a setting like this:

	Xft.dpi: 96

or a value closer to your display's resolution. It might also help to  
run your X server with your display's resolution. Some X servers  
evaluate the contents of a ~/.xserverrc file.

--
Greetings

   Pete

Who the fsck is "General Failure," and why is he reading my disk?

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Tury]

Hi,

thanks very much for the hints!

I learned a lot from them, but my problem remained unchanged: cvs
Emacs still uses an awfully big default font: now I thing this could
be seen as a bug in current cvs version. What do you think? (Now I
customized 'default' font to ":height 80" and this improved the
sitution, but I think Emacs should be better at guessing defaults for
'default' font.)

Based on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-October/126426.html
and on http://xubuntulinux.blogspot.com/2006/07/ubuntu-set-correct-dpi-for-x-server.html
...
I figured out that the actual dpi for my display is 129.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/dpi-screen-window.html prooved this.

I set ~/.Xresources as follows:
Xft.dpi: 129
Emacs.FontBackend: xft (is this unnecessary?)

Also I set Gnome default fonts to 8pt. (Originally 96dpi was assumed
by Gnome by default and bigger fonts were used system-wide: I had to
change them when I set correct dpi values.)

However, none of these affected Emacs: it still uses 11.8pt high fonts
(previously it was 12pt)!? Where does this default come from? I guess
that code should be improved.

On 2008 dec. 28, 01:38, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@Web.DE> wrote:

> In KDE and GNOME there are rule settings about appropriate font  
> sizes. An optimised bitmapped font for 100 DPI is larger than the  
> same font for 75 DPI. When the X11 font path has the 100 DPI font  
> before the 75 DPI fonts than these larger fonts are used.

How can I check if this is the case now for me? (I use Gnome on Ubuntu
8.10.)

> GNU Emacs  23.0.60 uses libXft. When a 100 DPI display is assumed by Xft then  
> quite large 75 DPI fonts might be used ...

I think now this can be ruled out in my case (becasue of my
~/.Xresources settings; see above).
Am I right?

> You could add to your X defaults a setting like this:
>         Xft.dpi: 96
> or a value closer to your display's resolution. It might also help to  
> run your X server with your display's resolution. Some X servers  
> evaluate the contents of a ~/.xserverrc file.

Now it seem X server knows my real dpi and uses it correctly. Only
Emacs wants to use strange size fonts.

Thanks,
P

PS.
Meanwhile I checked http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/XftGnuEmacs also.
It seems to be a bit outdated. Am I right?

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Tury]

Hi,

thanks very much for the hints!

I learned a lot from them, but my problem remained unchanged: cvs
Emacs still uses an awfully big default font: now I thing this could
be seen as a bug in current cvs version. What do you think? (Now I
customized 'default' font to ":height 80" and this improved the
sitution, but I think Emacs should be better at guessing defaults for
'default' font.)

Based on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-October/126426.html
and on http://xubuntulinux.blogspot.com/2006/07/ubuntu-set-correct-dpi-for-x-server.html
...
I figured out that the actual dpi for my display is 129.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/dpi-screen-window.html prooved this.

I set ~/.Xresources as follows:
Xft.dpi: 129
Emacs.FontBackend: xft (is this unnecessary?)

Also I set Gnome default fonts to 8pt. (Originally 96dpi was assumed
by Gnome by default and bigger fonts were used system-wide: I had to
change them when I set correct dpi values.)

However, none of these affected Emacs: it still uses 11.8pt high fonts
(previously it was 12pt)!? Where does this default come from? I guess
that code should be improved.

On 2008 dec. 28, 01:38, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@Web.DE> wrote:

> In KDE and GNOME there are rule settings about appropriate font  
> sizes. An optimised bitmapped font for 100 DPI is larger than the  
> same font for 75 DPI. When the X11 font path has the 100 DPI font  
> before the 75 DPI fonts than these larger fonts are used.

How can I check if this is the case now for me? (I use Gnome on Ubuntu
8.10.)

> GNU Emacs  23.0.60 uses libXft. When a 100 DPI display is assumed by Xft then  
> quite large 75 DPI fonts might be used ...

I think now this can be ruled out in my case (becasue of my
~/.Xresources settings; see above).
Am I right?

> You could add to your X defaults a setting like this:
>         Xft.dpi: 96
> or a value closer to your display's resolution. It might also help to  
> run your X server with your display's resolution. Some X servers  
> evaluate the contents of a ~/.xserverrc file.

Now it seem X server knows my real dpi and uses it correctly. Only
Emacs wants to use strange size fonts.

Thanks,
P

PS.
Meanwhile I checked http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/XftGnuEmacs also.
It seems to be a bit outdated. Am I right?

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 02.01.2009 um 22:41 schrieb Peter Tury:

> However, none of these affected Emacs: it still uses 11.8pt high fonts
> (previously it was 12pt)!? Where does this default come from? I guess
> that code should be improved.

I think the default font size is set to be 16 pt – I've seen such  
LARGE characters at different times with Emacs versions on Macs and  
in MS Losedos. On a 129 DPI display it should be much larger to  
achieve the same readability!

The actual font used can be determined by typing C-u C-x = on some  
character. You could also invoke M-x describe-fontset RET RET.

>
> On 2008 dec. 28, 01:38, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@Web.DE> wrote:
>
>> In KDE and GNOME there are rule settings about appropriate font
>> sizes. An optimised bitmapped font for 100 DPI is larger than the
>> same font for 75 DPI. When the X11 font path has the 100 DPI font
>> before the 75 DPI fonts than these larger fonts are used.
>
> How can I check if this is the case now for me? (I use Gnome on Ubuntu
> 8.10.)

xset -q

>
>> GNU Emacs  23.0.60 uses libXft. When a 100 DPI display is assumed  
>> by Xft then
>> quite large 75 DPI fonts might be used ...
>
> I think now this can be ruled out in my case (becasue of my
> ~/.Xresources settings; see above).
> Am I right?


Do you see these settings from 'xrdb -q | grep <some setting>' ?

To me it looks as if GNU Emacs creates its startup fontset from  
either an X resource Emacs*font (I am using on a 100 or 96 DPI LCD -*- 
lucidatypewriter-medium-r-*-*-10-*-*-*-m-*-iso10646-1). This can be  
overwritten with font or fontset settings from initial-frame-alist  
and default-frame-alist. You can try this also on the command line:

	emacs [usual options etc] -xrm 'Emacs*font: <some XLFD>' &

XLFD = X Logical Font Description, /usr/X11/share/X11/doc/hardcopy/ 
XLFD/xlfd.PS.gz

Another option is to use the fonts menu (S-mouse-1). Here you can  
decrease the font size. Once you've found something useful you could  
choose "Save Options" from the Options menu. Could be it saves  
something meaningful in your init file!

Have you tried to read the Emacs manual? C-h i ... There is also info- 
apropos.

--
Greetings

   Pete

Imbecility, n.:
	A kind of divine inspiration, or sacred fire affecting
	censorious critics of this dictionary.
			– Ambrose Bierce: _The Devil's Dictionary_

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Tury]

Hi,

thanks again for your quick and detailed answer!

On jan. 3, 01:17, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@Web.DE> wrote:
> Am 02.01.2009 um 22:41 schrieb Peter Tury:
>
> > However, none of these affected Emacs: it still uses 11.8pt high fonts
> > (previously it was 12pt)!?

I deduced these from `describe-face's result for 'default' face. It
told: "Height: 118" (previously: 120). Doesn't this show the used font
size? (After the customization mentioned earlier, now it tells:
"Height: 79". This is fine for me.)

> The actual font used can be determined by typing C-u C-x = on some  
> character.

It gives me (after the customization, i.e. when I have normal size
fonts):
        character: ( (40, #o50, #x28)
preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
       code point: 0x28
           syntax: ()	which means: open, matches )
         category: a:ASCII
ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin r:Roman
Japanese roman
      buffer code: #x28
        file code: #x28 (encoded by coding system undecided-unix)
          display: by this font (glyph code)
    xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-14-*-*-*-m-0-
iso10646-1 (#x0B)
...

Does this mean 14pt size?

When starting by Emacs -Q (i.e. in case of awfully big characters) it
gives:

        character: a (97, #o141, #x61)
preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
       code point: 0x61
           syntax: w 	which means: word
         category: a:ASCII
ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin r:Roman
Japanese roman
      buffer code: #x61
        file code: #x61 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
          display: by this font (glyph code)
    xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-21-*-*-*-m-0-
iso10646-1 (#x44)
...

21pt?

> You could also invoke M-x describe-fontset RET RET.
>
> > On 2008 dec. 28, 01:38, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@Web.DE> wrote:
>
> >> In KDE and GNOME there are rule settings about appropriate font
> >> sizes. An optimised bitmapped font for 100 DPI is larger than the
> >> same font for 75 DPI. When the X11 font path has the 100 DPI font
> >> before the 75 DPI fonts than these larger fonts are used.
>
> > How can I check if this is the case now for me? (I use Gnome on Ubuntu
> > 8.10.)
>
> xset -q

Yes, 100dpi libraries are indeed before the 75dpi ones. Should I
change somehow their order? How is this possible?

> >> GNU Emacs  23.0.60 uses libXft. When a 100 DPI display is assumed  
> >> by Xft then
> >> quite large 75 DPI fonts might be used ...
>
> > I think now this can be ruled out in my case (becasue of my
> > ~/.Xresources settings; see above).
> > Am I right?
>
> Do you see these settings from 'xrdb -q | grep <some setting>' ?

Yes, both of my manual settings (Xft.dpi and Emacs.FontBackend) can be
seen as I set them (129 and xft).

> To me it looks as if GNU Emacs creates its startup fontset from  
> either an X resource Emacs*font

I checked  xrdb -q | grep Emacs and it contains only colors (except
what I set manually -- fontbackend). Should I check something else
too?

> This can be  
> overwritten with font or fontset settings from initial-frame-alist  
> and default-frame-alist. You can try this also on the command line:
>
>         emacs [usual options etc] -xrm 'Emacs*font: <some XLFD>' &
>
> XLFD = X Logical Font Description, /usr/X11/share/X11/doc/hardcopy/
> XLFD/xlfd.PS.gz

I'll try this, thanks for the hint! (Now I get the huge fonts when I
start Emacs with -Q for this "troublshooting", so I got rid of my
normal -frame-alist settings...; otherwise the customization saved
into .emacs results in smaller fonts.)

> Another option is to use the fonts menu (S-mouse-1). Here you can  
> decrease the font size. Once you've found something useful you could  
> choose "Save Options" from the Options menu. Could be it saves  
> something meaningful in your init file!
>
> Have you tried to read the Emacs manual? C-h i ... There is also info-
> apropos.

Thanks, I tried these. As I wrote, I have a solution what works, so I
can use Emacs. What I use now is the permanet customization of the
'default' face.

Now I would like to know if it is a bug that normal working can be
achieved only by some manual customizations? (In other words: I think
Emacs should find the proper font sizes as other applications find
them by default.)

Thanks,
P

Re: cvs emacs scales fonts to awfully big?

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 03.01.2009 um 02:51 schrieb Peter Tury:

>>
>>
>>> However, none of these affected Emacs: it still uses 11.8pt high  
>>> fonts
>>> (previously it was 12pt)!?
>
> I deduced these from `describe-face's result for 'default' face. It
> told: "Height: 118" (previously: 120). Doesn't this show the used font
> size? (After the customization mentioned earlier, now it tells:
> "Height: 79". This is fine for me.)

The XLFD has a pixel size and a point size. The latter is ten times  
the former.

>
>> The actual font used can be determined by typing C-u C-x = on some
>> character.
>
> It gives me (after the customization, i.e. when I have normal size
> fonts):
>         character: ( (40, #o50, #x28)
> preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>        code point: 0x28
>            syntax: ()	which means: open, matches )
>          category: a:ASCII
> ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin r:Roman
> Japanese roman
>       buffer code: #x28
>         file code: #x28 (encoded by coding system undecided-unix)
>           display: by this font (glyph code)
>     xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-14-*-*-*-m-0-
> iso10646-1 (#x0B)

You can see that the font was selected via libXft.

>
> Does this mean 14pt size?

Yes! But (point) size in pixels.

>
> When starting by Emacs -Q (i.e. in case of awfully big characters) it
> gives:
>
>         character: a (97, #o141, #x61)
> preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>        code point: 0x61
>            syntax: w 	which means: word
>          category: a:ASCII
> ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin r:Roman
> Japanese roman
>       buffer code: #x61
>         file code: #x61 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
>           display: by this font (glyph code)
>     xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-21-*-*-*-m-0-
> iso10646-1 (#x44)
> ...
>
> 21pt?

Yes, and obviously trying to accommodate the 16pt (or now 14pt?)  
default to the display's resolution. Notice that the resx and resy  
fields are unspecified, so any 75 DPI or 100 DPI font, whichever  
comes first, matches this specification.

Have you ever tried xfontsel?

>>
>> xset -q
>
> Yes, 100dpi libraries are indeed before the 75dpi ones. Should I
> change somehow their order? How is this possible?

In your ~/.xinitrc or ~/.xsession file, whichever is used, you can  
insert/correct:

	xset fp= /path/1/,/path/2/,/path/3/
	xset fp rehash

See man xset. Usually one uses 'xset fp+ ...' or 'xset +fp ...',  
i.e., one appends or prepends local additional font path elements  
(directories) to the compile time default.


>> To me it looks as if GNU Emacs creates its startup fontset from
>> either an X resource Emacs*font
>
> I checked  xrdb -q | grep Emacs and it contains only colors (except
> what I set manually -- fontbackend). Should I check something else
> too?

It's your decision! The GNU Emacs info node has some documentation on  
X resources.

>
> Now I would like to know if it is a bug that normal working can be
> achieved only by some manual customizations?

It's not: it's a design decision. Maybe it has to be corrected for  
modern LCD screens. This could be done by choosing to report an Emacs  
bug (Help menu) and changing the subject of the eMail to the  
developers from bug report to something more appropriate.

> (In other words: I think Emacs should find the proper font sizes as  
> other applications find them by default.)
>


IMO it does! I let it use

	Emacs*font:     -*-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-*-*-10-*-*-*-m-*- 
iso10646-1

and

	    x:-b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-10-100-75-75-m-60- 
iso8859-1

is used for an ASCII character (libXft on my Mac is from last  
millennium or elder and therefore unusable). If no X resource is  
defined and no font or fontset is set in *-frame-alist a default in C  
source code is used as last resort. This sounds quite rational.

--
Greetings

   Pete

One cannot live by television, video games, top ten CDs, and dumb  
movies alone.
				– Amiri Baraka, 1999