From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 09:52:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390758798 14388 80.91.229.3 (26 Jan 2014 17:53:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:53:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org To: martin rudalics Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 26 18:53:22 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtZ-0008FS-Hc for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:53:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55685 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtZ-00086F-74 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:53:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtP-00085e-Rm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:53:19 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtG-0007Sm-5e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:53:11 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:51041) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtG-0007Si-1u for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:53:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TtF-00066P-Qm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:53:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139075873323392 (code B ref 16038); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:53:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jan 2014 17:52:13 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36827 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TsS-00065E-Rf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:52:13 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:32171) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TsQ-000653-HJ for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:52:11 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0QHq8Hh023958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:09 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0QHq7KB015889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:08 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0QHq7Lv026197; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:07 GMT In-Reply-To: <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:84049 Archived-At: > > And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to > > fix in my code. What is the problem? >=20 > The one from http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D8368#32. That demo example was not from my code, as you know. It demonstrates bug #8368, showing why it needs to be fixed. And it is still pertinent, AFAIK. > > (And what is the fix you have in mind?) And the fix is? > >> > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace > >> > with what code, concretely? > >> > >> Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > > > Why should that be replaced? And if it should, just what > > should it to be replaced with? >=20 > With `with-temp-buffer-window'. How so? Is it a one-one replacement? What about the hooks? If `with-temp-buffer-window' is supposed to be the replacement for `with-output-to-temp-buffer' then that needs to be stated clearly in the NEWS. Including a spec of what the replacement should be for different `with-output-to-temp-buffer' input patterns (formal parameters). And including hook use (correspondences). With any significant differences and limitations pointed out. That is how to help users transition from the old to the new. I imagine that you are well aware of that, but it's perhaps better not to guess. Consider by contrast this NEWS entry, which helps users understand how to use `cl-flet' by pointing out how it differs from (Emacs Lisp) `flet': *** `cl-flet' is not like `flet' (which is deprecated). Instead it obeys the behavior of Common-Lisp's `flet'. In particular, in cl-flet function definitions are lexically scoped, whereas in flet the scoping is dynamic. > > That is part of deprecating something: > > tell users what they should change to what in existing > > code. E.g., > > (old-foo this that) =3D=3D> > > (new-bar something-else that 42 (1- this)) > > or whatever. >=20 > I don't propose to deprecate something. It seems to me that that is part of what bug #16038, and this discussion, are about. It is also part of what bug #8368 is about. You ask us to reread #8368, to guess how your new macro responds to that bug. That bug speaks specifically about deprecating `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. And in that context the deprecation would involve a simple renaming (one-one). > I offer a solution to a problem. What is the solution, beyond chanting the mantra `with-temp-buffer-window'? What `with-output-to-temp-buffer' patterns map to what `with-temp-buffer-window' patterns? What about the various hooks? > >> Maybe Leo would have started to do that if you had not > >> interfered. I suggest you apologize and consult with him > >> on how to proceed on this matter. > > > Suggest all you want, if it makes you feel better. But I > > do not feel that I interfered in any way. Nor do I think > > I have anything to apologize for. >=20 > Then better don't ask for suggestions. No one asked for ad hominem, off-the-wall "suggestions". Of course, you elided your actual suggestion (restored here), as well as what I said about it (restored here), giving the impression that it might have actually been a helpful, technical suggestion that I objected to when I said, "Suggest all you want".