* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
@ 2009-08-10 2:34 Xah Lee
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Xah Lee @ 2009-08-10 2:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen J. Turnbull, Lennart Borgman, Eli Zaretskii,
monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, "emacs-d
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just wanted to chime in to say thanks for considering this.
I'm more inclined to agree with Stephan Monnier's message at the start of
the thread.
possibly adding a menu that lists most popular computer language modes for
people to switch to might be nice. Because that way user can have a glance
of what modes are supported, and when they open a empty file (say, code
copied from the web, which happens a lot in at least web dev), they can
switch to that mode thru the menu. One problem i find about calling the mode
name directly wiht M-x for new users is that the command name is not always
intuitive e.g. cperl-mode, nxml-mode, js2-mode etc.
Here're some personal code diddling with the menu. It's probably not useful
for implementation in source, only as a graft on ... maybe can be used as a
quick What It Looks Like thing.
Xah
-----------------------------------------
;; file menu
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file open-file] '("Open file or folder" .
find-file))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file kill-buffer] '("Close" .
close-current-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file new-file] '("New" . new-empty-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file dired] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file insert-file] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file make-frame-on-display] nil)
;; edit menu
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search search-forward] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search search-backward] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search re-search-forward] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search re-search-backward] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search repeat-search-fwd] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit search repeat-search-back] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit goto go-to-pos] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit goto beg-of-buf] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar edit goto end-of-buf] nil)
;; options menu
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options cua-mode] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options transient-mark-mode] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options blink-cursor-mode] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options debug-on-error] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options debug-on-quit] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide showhide-tool-bar] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide showhide-scroll-bar] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide showhide-fringe] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide mac-font-panel-mode] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide showhide-battery] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide showhide-date-time] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar options showhide size-indication-mode] nil)
(define-key global-map (kbd "<S-down-mouse-1>") nil)
;; buffers menu
(define-key global-map [menu-bar buffer next-buffer] '("Next User Buffer" .
next-user-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar buffer previous-buffer] '("Previous User
Buffer" . previous-user-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar buffer next-emacs-buffer] '("Next Emacs
Buffer" . next-emacs-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar buffer previous-emacs-buffer] '("Previous
Emacs Buffer" . previous-emacs-buffer))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar buffer list-all-buffers] '("List All
Buffers" . ibuffer))
;; tools menu
(define-key global-map [menu-bar tools gnus] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar tools rmail] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar tools compose-mail] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar tools games] nil)
;; obsolete, outdated contents. Much replaced by web.
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu getting-new-versions] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu describe-distribution] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu external-packages] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu more] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-known-problems] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-problems] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu find-emacs-packages] nil)
;; outdated humor and tech
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu eliza] nil) (define-key
global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-psychotherapist] nil)
;; antiquated tutorial. If it needs a tutorial, something is wrong with UI.
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-tutorial] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-tutorial-language-specific]
nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu emacs-faq] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu search-documentation
emacs-terminology] nil)
;; remove some FSF philosophy. (already linked in About Emacs)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu about-gnu-project] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu describe-copying] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu describe-no-warranty] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu more-manuals order-emacs-manuals]
nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu manuals order-emacs-manuals] nil)
(define-key global-map [menu-bar help-menu about-gnu-project] nil)
;; Create language modes menu
(define-key-after global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes] (cons "Language
Modes" (make-sparse-keymap "major modes")) 'kill-buffer )
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes bash] '("Bash" . sh-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes tcl] '("TCL" . tcl-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes ruby] '("Ruby" .
ruby-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes python] '("Python" .
python-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes php] '("PHP" . php-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes perl] '("Perl" .
cperl-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes separator1] '("--"))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes haskell] '("Haskell" .
haskell-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes ocaml] '("OCaml" .
tuareg-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes elisp] '("Emacs Lisp" .
emacs-lisp-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes separator2] '("--"))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes latex] '("LaTeX" .
latex-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes js] '("Javascript" .
js2-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes xml] '("XML (xml-mode)" .
xml-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes nxml] '("XML (nxml-mode)" .
nxml-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes html] '("HTML" .
html-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes css] '("CSS" . css-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes separator3] '("--"))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes java] '("Java" .
java-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes c++] '("C++" . c++-mode))
(define-key global-map [menu-bar file lang-modes c] '("C" . c-mode))
;; TO DO:
;; • remove dividers
;; • move incremental search menus one level up.
;; • reorg the help menu and submenu.
Xah
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!
@ 2009-08-05 3:22 xah lee
2009-08-06 2:15 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: xah lee @ 2009-08-05 3:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bug-gnu-emacs; +Cc: xah lee
not sure what's the best channel to say this, but i just compiled
emacs 23 on my mac nari-a-hitch! Just wanted to say thanks to all the
emacs developers. Thank you!
this is on a iMac (1.9 Ghz PowerPC G5; the last G5 model), running OS
X 10.4.11.
GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (powerpc-apple-darwin8.11.0, NS apple-appkit-824.48)
of 2009-08-04 on xahg5.local
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!
2009-08-05 3:22 bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23! xah lee
@ 2009-08-06 2:15 ` Richard Stallman
2009-08-08 16:11 ` Xah Lee
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2009-08-06 2:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: xah lee, 4043; +Cc: xah, bug-gnu-emacs
You could really thank us
by switching from non-free MacOS to a free operating system
such as GNU/Linux or BSD.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!
2009-08-06 2:15 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2009-08-08 16:11 ` Xah Lee
2009-08-09 3:36 ` Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Stefan Monnier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Xah Lee @ 2009-08-08 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms, 4043; +Cc: bug-gnu-emacs
How about improving emacs? Because when you improve software of your
philosophy, then automatically more people will use it.
I would like to see this area improved:
• Emacs's Menu Usability Problem
http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_menu.html
Thank you.
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/
☄
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
To: "xah lee" <xah@xahlee.org>; <4043@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>
Cc: <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>; <xah@xahlee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!
> You could really thank us
> by switching from non-free MacOS to a free operating system
> such as GNU/Linux or BSD.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-08 16:11 ` Xah Lee
@ 2009-08-09 3:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-08-09 3:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xah Lee; +Cc: emacs-devel
> • Emacs's Menu Usability Problem
> http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_menu.html
Some of them sound like good ideas. Here's my take on it:
> The non-interactive search menus are for one-time use, and do not have
> keyboard shortcuts. This operation method is extremely inefficient, and
> probably is almost never used statistically. Since Emacs provides
> interactive search features, both by menu as well as by keyboard
> shortcut, it should replace these one-time find menu items
I agree that getting rid of the non-interactive search items in
Edit->Search would be a good simplification.
> Emacs's Edit menu.
> The 3 Goto menu items are not much useful.
> * The “Goto Buffer Position...” invokes the command goto-char, which
> moves the cursor to the nth char in a buffer. If a programer wants
> to go to a particular position, typically it is done by line number
> and column number. The “goto-char” is used for elisp
> programing. Perhaps less than 2% of Emacs users actually program in
> elisp. Elisp programers wouldn't need a menu for goto-char. They'd
> call it by typing M-x.
Yes this one seems pretty useless.
> * The Goto beginning/ending of buffer is useless as a menu. Users
> can intuitively press the Page Up, Page Down keys, scroll the mouse,
> or “Ctrl+Home” and “Ctrl+End” to do the same thing. All these
> methods are familiar to users because they are implemented in most
> apps across Windows, Mac, Linux. For those using Emacs's “M-<” and
> “M->” shortcuts, they don't need the menu or the menu to
> remind them.
[ Please write GNU/Linux rather than just "Linux" when talking about the
whole system. ]
Not sure about these. They're not very useful maybe, but they do serve
the purpose of indicating what is the canonical keybinding for
those commands.
> Emacs 22's Options menu.
> * The “Active Region Highlighting” is on by default in Emacs
> 23. This behavior is standard in all modern editors. For old time
> Emacs users who want it off, they can be easily do so thru
> Customization menu or elisp code.
Maybe this will make sense at some point, but just activating it by
default in Emacs-23 required a fair bit of confrontation. One of the
conditions to turn it on was that it be as easy as possible to turn it
back off, even in those cases where modifying the .emacs is not an
option (e.g. using someone else's Emacs).
> * The “Case-Insensitive Search” should be moved to be together with
> the interactive search menu under Edit.
This also sounds OK, except for the problem of making the behavior of
the "Save options" menu entry clear: currently this entry saves all the
options that appear above in the menu. So if we move an entry to some
other menu, we get into some trouble.
>
> * The Blinking Cursor is standard behavior in all editors. Probably
> less than 0.1% users would want to tweak it. If a tweaker wants it
> off, he can easily do so using the Customization menu.
This option is one of the ones that generated the largest amount of
noise when Emacs-21 came out (along with the tool-bar and the fringes).
I personally find it very annoying. So here again, it's in the menu so
it can easily be turned off even in sessions where the .emacs cannot
be modified.
> * The Enter Debugger commands are used for elisp programing
> only. They are not useful for vast majority of Emacs users.
I wouldn't mind removing it from the menu.
> * The tool-bar is a bar consisting of largish buttons for copy, cut,
> paste, open, etc. This is not useful for most people who use Emacs.
I'd tend to agree, but I'm not sure I'm ready to turn it off by default.
> * The Scroll-bar and Fringe menu items should be gone. Scroll-bar is
> a standard feature in all applications. If a power user wants it
> off, he can do so thru the customization menu. The Fringe adjustment
> is again for tweakers. It adds distraction.
Those entries mostly play the role of advertisement.
> * The Time, Battery, are of little use. Their functionality are
> provided by the OS's tool bar. Again, for geeks who need it, it is
> easy to call the command by “M-x”.
I'd tend to agree. But I also do not remember why they were added, so
maybe there's just something I'm missing.
> * The Size Indication, which shows the file size in the mode-line,
> should be gone too because for those who needs this feature, they
> don't need a menu.
No opinion on this one.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 3:36 ` Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Stefan Monnier
@ 2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 17:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 12:37 ` Florian Beck
2009-08-09 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 3:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Xah Lee, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Stefan Monnier<monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> I agree that getting rid of the non-interactive search items in
> Edit->Search would be a good simplification.
I would suggest burying them deeper down in the menus instead. For
advertising reasons it is still good to have them there.
>> Emacs's Edit menu.
>> * The Goto beginning/ending of buffer is useless as a menu. Users
>> can intuitively press the Page Up, Page Down keys, scroll the mouse,
>> or “Ctrl+Home” and “Ctrl+End” to do the same thing. All these
>> methods are familiar to users because they are implemented in most
>> apps across Windows, Mac, Linux. For those using Emacs's “M-<” and
>> “M->” shortcuts, they don't need the menu or the menu to
>> remind them.
>
> Not sure about these. They're not very useful maybe, but they do serve
> the purpose of indicating what is the canonical keybinding for
> those commands.
For whom? I think new users will probably use C-End etc.
>> * The “Case-Insensitive Search” should be moved to be together with
>> the interactive search menu under Edit.
>
> This also sounds OK, except for the problem of making the behavior of
> the "Save options" menu entry clear: currently this entry saves all the
> options that appear above in the menu. So if we move an entry to some
> other menu, we get into some trouble.
The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing. I think it would be
better to ask for each option if it would be set permanently or just
temporarily.
This would be easier to understand and there would be no obstacle of
this kind for moving them.
>> * The Scroll-bar and Fringe menu items should be gone. Scroll-bar is
>> a standard feature in all applications. If a power user wants it
>> off, he can do so thru the customization menu. The Fringe adjustment
>> is again for tweakers. It adds distraction.
>
> Those entries mostly play the role of advertisement.
Maybe bury them under "Show/Hide - Advanced - Scroll-bar" etc?
>> * The Time, Battery, are of little use. Their functionality are
>> provided by the OS's tool bar. Again, for geeks who need it, it is
>> easy to call the command by “M-x”.
>
> I'd tend to agree. But I also do not remember why they were added, so
> maybe there's just something I'm missing.
Bury it under advanced as above.
>> * The Size Indication, which shows the file size in the mode-line,
>> should be gone too because for those who needs this feature, they
>> don't need a menu.
Bury it under advanced.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 17:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 17:56 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
> I think it would be better to ask for each option if it would be set
> permanently or just temporarily.
That'd be a major annoyance, I think.
> Maybe bury them under "Show/Hide - Advanced - Scroll-bar" etc?
>
>
> >> * The Time, Battery, are of little use. Their functionality are
> >> provided by the OS's tool bar. Again, for geeks who need it, it is
> >> easy to call the command by “M-x”.
> >
> > I'd tend to agree. But I also do not remember why they were added, so
> > maybe there's just something I'm missing.
>
> Bury it under advanced as above.
>
>
> >> * The Size Indication, which shows the file size in the mode-line,
> >> should be gone too because for those who needs this feature, they
> >> don't need a menu.
>
> Bury it under advanced.
Please, let's not go the way of all the silly programs that put
everything interesting under "Advanced"!
In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 17:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 17:56 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
>
> I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
> feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
They do? It does not at all seem common to me, but maybe I have just
missed it. I just looked in Firefox and OpenOffice.org and I can't see
anything similar.
>> I think it would be better to ask for each option if it would be set
>> permanently or just temporarily.
>
> That'd be a major annoyance, I think.
Exactly why?
I think the current "Save Options" is hard to understand. For me it is
nothing I recognize from other program GUIs. How do you know which
options it will save? Is it only those visible in the menu at the
moment you call the function? Or does it include options further down
in the menus? (I don't know actually.) What happens if you call it
from the command line?
I suggest removing it or replacing it with customize-customze which is
more consistent. Or maybe a version of that just lists which variables
to save.
>> Maybe bury them under "Show/Hide - Advanced - Scroll-bar" etc?
>>
>>
>> >> * The Time, Battery, are of little use. Their functionality are
>> >> provided by the OS's tool bar. Again, for geeks who need it, it is
>> >> easy to call the command by “M-x”.
>> >
>> > I'd tend to agree. But I also do not remember why they were added, so
>> > maybe there's just something I'm missing.
>>
>> Bury it under advanced as above.
>>
>>
>> >> * The Size Indication, which shows the file size in the mode-line,
>> >> should be gone too because for those who needs this feature, they
>> >> don't need a menu.
>>
>> Bury it under advanced.
>
> Please, let's not go the way of all the silly programs that put
> everything interesting under "Advanced"!
Are you misunderstanding what I suggested? I did not suggest a single
"Advanced". I suggested that as a subgroup/submenu.
I think that is a very good and common practice. It gives a good
structure while at the same time it does not burden those that does
not need to see the advanced options. Still they have an easy chance
to find out they are there.
In what way do you find this silly?
> In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
> gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
> group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
> have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
> make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
Please see above. I think you are misunderstanding.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 17:56 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:10 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:56:06 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >>
> >> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
> >
> > I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
> > feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
>
> They do? It does not at all seem common to me, but maybe I have just
> missed it. I just looked in Firefox and OpenOffice.org and I can't see
> anything similar.
Try harder.
> >> I think it would be better to ask for each option if it would be set
> >> permanently or just temporarily.
> >
> > That'd be a major annoyance, I think.
>
> Exactly why?
Because I don't like to be annoyed with interactive prompts too much,
they get in the way of fast typing.
> Are you misunderstanding what I suggested?
No, I understand you very well.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 18:10 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:56:06 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
>> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >>
>> >> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
>> >
>> > I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
>> > feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
>>
>> They do? It does not at all seem common to me, but maybe I have just
>> missed it. I just looked in Firefox and OpenOffice.org and I can't see
>> anything similar.
>
> Try harder.
You got me. I simply must be missing it. Exactly where in the Firefox
menus is it??
>> >> I think it would be better to ask for each option if it would be set
>> >> permanently or just temporarily.
>> >
>> > That'd be a major annoyance, I think.
>>
>> Exactly why?
>
> Because I don't like to be annoyed with interactive prompts too much,
> they get in the way of fast typing.
How can fast typing interfere with setting an option in the menus?
(Well it can, or could at least before. If you opened the menu and
made your choice too fast then nearly anything could happen. But I do
not know if that is still buggy because I used my patched version to
avoid that. BTW Firefox still has a rather similar bug.)
>> Are you misunderstanding what I suggested?
>
> No, I understand you very well.
So you are saying that subgroups are bad because they do not give you
enough structure?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:10 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:10:41 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> So you are saying that subgroups are bad because they do not give you
> enough structure?
I'm saying that subgroups called "advanced" are bad.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 18:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:10:41 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> So you are saying that subgroups are bad because they do not give you
>> enough structure?
>
> I'm saying that subgroups called "advanced" are bad.
You said
In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
Maybe the name "Advanced" is bad but we were talking about the
structure of the menus. Making a subgroup named "Advanced" is not bad
IMO since it is a subgroup with a context.
Rather, within that context it may be a very good mnemonic.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:21 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:21:46 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > I'm saying that subgroups called "advanced" are bad.
>
> You said
>
> In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
> gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
> group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
> have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
> make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
Yes, and that goes for subgroups as well.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:21:46 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> > I'm saying that subgroups called "advanced" are bad.
>>
>> You said
>>
>> In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
>> gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
>> group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
>> have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
>> make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
>
> Yes, and that goes for subgroups as well.
And the reason? You can hardly avoid seeing the contexts in the menus.
It is actually one of the main thing in a cascading menu.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 18:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:54:11 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:21:46 +0200
> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >>
> >> > I'm saying that subgroups called "advanced" are bad.
> >>
> >> You said
> >>
> >> In a good UI, each feature should be put under a group whose name
> >> gives a hint that the feature could be reasonably looked up in that
> >> group. Having group names such as "Advanced" or "More options", that
> >> have no mnemonic value, is abusing the menus, which are supposed to
> >> make the job of finding a feature _easier_, not harder.
> >
> > Yes, and that goes for subgroups as well.
>
>
> And the reason?
But you just quoted me explaining that, see above!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:10 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 19:07 ` Lennart Borgman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:10:41 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:56:06 +0200
> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
> >> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> >> >> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >> >>
> >> >> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
> >> >
> >> > I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
> >> > feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
> >>
> >> They do? It does not at all seem common to me, but maybe I have just
> >> missed it. I just looked in Firefox and OpenOffice.org and I can't see
> >> anything similar.
> >
> > Try harder.
>
>
> You got me. I simply must be missing it. Exactly where in the Firefox
> menus is it??
Hint: what are all those "Apply" buttons you click to make the
selected options permanent?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-09 19:07 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:10:41 +0200
>> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:56:06 +0200
>> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, xah@xahlee.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> >> >> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 05:53:25 +0200
>> >> >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
>> >> >> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The "Save options" is in my opinion confusing.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't see how it can be. Many other GUI programs have a similar
>> >> > feature, and I didn't find it confusing at all.
>> >>
>> >> They do? It does not at all seem common to me, but maybe I have just
>> >> missed it. I just looked in Firefox and OpenOffice.org and I can't see
>> >> anything similar.
>> >
>> > Try harder.
>>
>>
>> You got me. I simply must be missing it. Exactly where in the Firefox
>> menus is it??
>
> Hint: what are all those "Apply" buttons you click to make the
> selected options permanent?
They are very different. You do not find them in the menus. They are
more like our save/set buttons in customize buffers.
Most often I believe program does not make the distinction between
saved and set options as Emacs does. I looked for example at Firebug
in Firefox menu. There you just toggle options permanently by clicking
them in the menu.
However if Apply buttons was what you were thinking of then why not
have a customize-save-customized entry instead in the options menu?
This would be much better than the current "Save Options" in my
opinion.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 19:07 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-10 1:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-08-10 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-09 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
BTW, there are many things that could be in the menus. For example I
just had to use the tag commands to find my way in the Emacs sources.
I use them very seldom so I always forget them and have to look them
up again.
It is quite a bit irritating that they are not in the menus. I would
suggest putting them under goto. Just make a submenu
Edit / Go to / Tags
and put all the commands in (info "(emacs) Find Tag") there.
Such things would be very helpful. The reason to not put them there
has been arguments like "it is too much" and "it is too deep".
These arguments are much weaker than the advertising/finding argument
in favor of having them there. (Do I have to say more about that? Just
imaging asking a new user for example. Or someone like me that does a
bit here and a bit there and forgets in between.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-10 1:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-08-10 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2009-08-10 1:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, Eli Zaretskii, monnier, emacs-devel
Lennart Borgman writes:
> It is quite a bit irritating that they are not in the menus. I would
> suggest putting them under goto. Just make a submenu
>
> Edit / Go to / Tags
>
> and put all the commands in (info "(emacs) Find Tag") there.
XEmacs puts Tags under Tools (you can do more with them than just go
to) at the top level.
> Such things would be very helpful. The reason to not put them there
> has been arguments like "it is too much" and "it is too deep".
How about, "it can be damn slow"? XEmacs does have fairly deep and
quite redundant menus, and I like them because of the discoverability.
But constructing the menus does take quite a bit of time because they
live in the files that they pertain to, which have to be loaded.
That's not a reason to avoid them completely (eg, it could be done at
build time using an automenu tool similar to auto-autoloads), but it
is definitely a consideration if you want to implement deep
discoverable menus.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-10 1:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
@ 2009-08-10 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-10 3:26 ` Lennart Borgman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-10 3:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 22:36:42 +0200
> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Cc: xah@xahlee.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> BTW, there are many things that could be in the menus. For example I
> just had to use the tag commands to find my way in the Emacs sources.
> I use them very seldom so I always forget them and have to look them
> up again.
>
> It is quite a bit irritating that they are not in the menus. I would
> suggest putting them under goto. Just make a submenu
>
> Edit / Go to / Tags
>
> and put all the commands in (info "(emacs) Find Tag") there.
??? Are you looking at Emacs 23 or at some other version? In Emacs
23, we have in "Edit->Go To" submenu "Find Tag", "Find Tag in Other
Window", "Find Next Tag", "Next Tag in Other Window", "Tags Apropos",
and "Set Tags File Name".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-10 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2009-08-10 3:26 ` Lennart Borgman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lennart Borgman @ 2009-08-10 3:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:03 AM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> BTW, there are many things that could be in the menus. For example I
>> just had to use the tag commands to find my way in the Emacs sources.
>> I use them very seldom so I always forget them and have to look them
>> up again.
>>
>> It is quite a bit irritating that they are not in the menus. I would
>> suggest putting them under goto. Just make a submenu
>>
>> Edit / Go to / Tags
>>
>> and put all the commands in (info "(emacs) Find Tag") there.
>
> ??? Are you looking at Emacs 23 or at some other version? In Emacs
> 23, we have in "Edit->Go To" submenu "Find Tag", "Find Tag in Other
> Window", "Find Next Tag", "Next Tag in Other Window", "Tags Apropos",
> and "Set Tags File Name".
I mean there are some more that are missing. You are right there are
many, but for example M-* is something I find useful. And some of the
other missing too.
I really can't understand what the reason was to not put them in the
menu when they are important enough to have key bindings.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 3:36 ` Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Stefan Monnier
2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
@ 2009-08-09 12:37 ` Florian Beck
2009-08-09 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Florian Beck @ 2009-08-09 12:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Xah Lee, emacs-devel
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> • Emacs's Menu Usability Problem
>> http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_menu.html
>
> Some of them sound like good ideas. Here's my take on it:
While I don't necessarily agree that emacs' popularity is held back by
to complicated menus, by all means do this.
However, menus are *also* used to explore features. So I would recommend
adding *more* commands to the menu at second or even third level (which
at the moment is shunned, because it's tedious for work, but it's great
for exploring features).
- How about introducing an easy way to add commands to the menu (maybe
via key binding in the minibuffer)?
- How about an extra menu »New in Emacs 23«?
- How about making the toolbar useful by allowing the user to move menu
items onto it?
--
Florian Beck
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 12:37 ` Florian Beck
@ 2009-08-09 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Florian Beck; +Cc: xah, monnier, emacs-devel
> From: Florian Beck <abstraktion@t-online.de>
> Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 14:37:08 +0200
> Cc: Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> - How about an extra menu »New in Emacs 23«?
What's wrong with "Help->Emacs news"?
> - How about making the toolbar useful by allowing the user to move menu
> items onto it?
Patches to add this are most welcome.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!)
2009-08-09 3:36 ` Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Stefan Monnier
2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 12:37 ` Florian Beck
@ 2009-08-09 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-08-09 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: xah, emacs-devel
> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:36:04 -0400
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> > * The Time, Battery, are of little use. Their functionality are
> > provided by the OS's tool bar. Again, for geeks who need it, it is
> > easy to call the command by “M-x”.
>
> I'd tend to agree.
These settings are already in a second-level menu, so how can they
possibly bother anyone? Just because Xah doesn't see any use for
them, it doesn't mean others won't. When I work on a laptop, I have
the Battery display on all the time, because Emacs lets me customize
that display in ways most OSes never will. As for Time, why should I
move my eyes to the system's display, somewhere on the fringes of the
screen, just to know what time it is?
> But I also do not remember why they were added
Mainly to advertise these features. Many users don't know Emacs has
them.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-08-10 3:26 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-08-10 2:34 Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Xah Lee
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2009-08-05 3:22 bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23! xah lee
2009-08-06 2:15 ` Richard Stallman
2009-08-08 16:11 ` Xah Lee
2009-08-09 3:36 ` Fiddling with the menus (was: bug#4043: 23.1; thanks for emacs 23!) Stefan Monnier
2009-08-09 3:53 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 17:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 17:56 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:10 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:21 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 18:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 18:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 19:07 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 20:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-10 1:51 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2009-08-10 3:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-10 3:26 ` Lennart Borgman
2009-08-09 12:37 ` Florian Beck
2009-08-09 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-08-09 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
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