From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 14:28:00 +0300 Message-ID: References: <20230809094655.793FC18A4654@snark.thyrsus.com> <87il9owg0f.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7412"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: esr@thyrsus.com, Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 10 13:29:09 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qU3qm-0001dW-U4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 13:29:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qU3pt-0001RK-2n; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qU3pr-0001Qr-7o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:11 -0400 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qU3po-0001z0-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:10 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6953B5C0061; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1691666883; x=1691753283; bh=1cd34tQv7aTiEF5XQAY8lKewLCSuCAjFtXo e9xuldXs=; b=moGIkp+Y5Ujd+6uBhLH/QdOUm/m8hCipR058nE38RjpQVB/m/X4 95/uNLRewmd9m9vF1h+n+DpRud4I9PwM2a5yeT7eEI8rYG2sJbV2N24jXUg/VIg/ sqdgvBGIDihq8Lzd2ZbewagsPZOSJH3kdegwNL5H/0jYLAatrLxTPHuC65L9FAwi ez/OYmb/1v0eLb4SRvPosvPuAFA8Jrwpg718M2vNbHH0Q1dVHdVbor8M9OyPYHpX hvprTHInzv2KPCB4lbN7uvRffGOo/hLnwNjHghpFWozYU8MN/5/2fDZ9lZiBb9wE rQJWEX39oajrwDit1hKCW1ieZbvsNf+1l5w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1691666883; x=1691753283; bh=1cd34tQv7aTiEF5XQAY8lKewLCSuCAjFtXo e9xuldXs=; b=keOhtFCDlqAToCJFMjyGiPYIy0PvU8ZXcz/8rfbVKMUOIvLBK8W M6smmkPVdtf3tNfvxs1qvHnHLxYP9WSHAbA/uVVf1c5Avwf/1hQOcuJIBj2s/2m7 SrsL8I8lW/CpDyLJ/O7FHs0t2/iJOEgIqcEivutUlZ5F/94SKqHgW1M36mZjw/FV HRQXy8kcNX+2e9U9lJt0Ihf8jx2gH5bIa2kUProH+PAneGw6izH/FdUbQkjm31tq GlY2X31lsaAJ1UAqvBEFvHR1uy0obZYaMnaPjaoUofqSiRQz+29KRveoZIRC3x6u AN3YC2LZHQXlX5Gn0/mmA5oSlhpYvzXBHDw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrleeigdegtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvvehfhfgjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeffmhhithhrhicuifhuthhovhcuoegumhhithhrhiesghhu thhovhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepiefgteevheevveffheeltdeukeeiie ekueefgedugfefgefhudelgfefveelvdevnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfr rghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepughmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 10 Aug 2023 07:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.25; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=out1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -49 X-Spam_score: -5.0 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-2.156, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308521 Archived-At: On 10/08/2023 04:19, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > basic considerations of clocks per second would > predict it to run a*dead minimum* of two orders of magnitude faster > than the Emacs of, say, 1990. In addition to the examples made by others, I'll say that the sizes of software projects have increased from 1990 as well. So if you have a Lisp routine that simply enumerates the files in one project, it has to do proportionally more work. > And 1990 Emacs was already way fast enough for the human eye and > brain, which can't even register interface lag of less than 0.17 > seconds (look up the story of Jef Raskin and how he exploited this > psychophysical fact in the design of the Canon Cat sometime; it's very > instructive). The human auditory system can perceive finer timeslices, > down to about 0.02s in skilled musicians, but we're not using elisp > for audio signal processing. I've had to expend significant effort on many occasions to keep various command execution times below 0.17, or 0.02, or etc. Which is to say, while I'm very much in favor of the "lean core" concept myself, we should accompany far-reaching changes like that with appropriate benchmarking.