From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 08:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434381819 22299 80.91.229.3 (15 Jun 2015 15:23:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:23:39 +0000 (UTC) To: Alan Mackenzie , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 15 17:23:26 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4WEQ-0000p9-3K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:23:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34830 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4WEP-0007rB-Hf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 11:23:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58054) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4WEK-0007qV-VF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 11:23:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4WEF-0008A3-Sl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 11:23:20 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:17285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z4WEF-00089x-N1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 11:23:15 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t5FFNDNp014825 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:23:13 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t5FFNDQe004712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:23:13 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t5FFNClu011136; Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:23:12 GMT In-Reply-To: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187176 Archived-At: > As far as I am aware, there has been no poll to gather and analyse > the views of Emacs developers on these changes, much less one for > Emacs users. Of course not. When was the last time you saw such a poll? ;-) > This is a Bad Thing. Yes. > What do people think? I've already made my position clear about this in the bug list. But I'll state it one more time. `...' is a very *good* way to set off inline symbols and other code phrases from surrounding non-code text. Those who think it is somehow just an odd and imperfect, old-fashioned form of *quoting* are sadly mistaken. That is not what it is about. '...' is used in ordinary English text, along with "...", for normal quotation. As a text editor (among other things), Emacs should not interfere with this usage or make it difficult for users or programs to parse it and manipulate it, by piling on an alternative interpretation. (Occam oblige.) What is needed in any doc about software is a way to clearly set off inline code phrases from surrounding, non-code text. This demarking constitutes metadata that is different from ordinary-text quoting. When structured doc or markup is used, this is typically accomplished using metadata that is provided by wrapping the code phrases in XML (or similar) elements/markup: .... In Emacs, we want, if possible, a simple mechanism that lets the text that contains the metadata (the "markup" text) to also act as the text that the user interacts with directly - search etc., but without the distraction of interacting with obvious markup ( etc.). `...' is simply an ingenious abbreviation for what is usually handled more verbosely using constructs such as .... As Alan points out, we want the metadata for this to be easy and quick to type, and not to interfere with either appearance or handling by program (including, but not limited to, Lisp). For all Emacs purposes I am aware of `...' is a very *good* invention. It is a reasonable compromise (yes, like anything else, it is not unambiguous in all contexts). And it has proven its worth in Emacs for 3 decades. That one person (plus our dear leader, apparently) thinks `...' is too "ugly" or too 1980s for his own use should not be a reason for Emacs to continue down the rabbit hole it has apparently been overzealously pushed into. The argument that ` and ' used to look OK back in the 80s, but fonts have changed so they are no longer symmetric, really misses the point. A delimiting pair of chars that is not confused with other uses ([], (), {}, <>, '', "",...) is what is needed, and `...' fits the bill well. (Some other contexts use `` or '', but like "", these have an obvious disadvantage. Still, even they would be preferable to '...'.) This change, whether implemented (a) only for rendering (appearance) or (b) at the base - actually using '...' in the underlying text, is altogether misguided, IMHO. Whether those originally responsible for `...' were aware of all of its advantages as a means of setting off inline code, I don't know. But I thank them for it. I hope that Emacs will eventually come to its senses about this and appreciate what a great gift `...' really is. Instead of being ashamed of `...' as a black sheep, the Emacs family should embrace it and be proud. Especially, it should understand how truly useful it is. '...' for inline code is a misguided, ugly hack, and in the long run not very workable. Emacs still has important and exciting things to work on and invent. The '...' crusade is not one of them, IMHO.