From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:53 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <669981e5-f601-5c18-1a8b-ee316ad001ec@cs.ucla.edu> <4b8b7e98-029e-58ac-59ff-6cd984b7eb85@yandex.ru> <530d3597-aaaa-f019-bafa-8229d13e7248@yandex.ru> <60b88f52-c50d-c57a-9ce5-495e6157d36e@cs.ucla.edu> <0721d8c1-4fe3-335c-7dbc-171487cb648a@yandex.ru> <6d1015da-0dc1-376c-f84b-5e3ee3149213@cs.ucla.edu> <286139d2-bbe1-2d5a-bec1-f781666376f1@yandex.ru> <10b89e6f-6fa6-f855-65b6-3361a74472d3@cs.ucla.edu> <8542efe2-c4a6-1da5-2513-7ffcaa6c4ec9@yandex.ru> <293d0eab-4617-08fe-aafa-d6841a750af0@cs.ucla.edu> <4085994e-f42d-b90f-9c86-ad42689bbff2@yandex.ru> <9cfc3b63-7df6-145a-8a78-e3320b6d3861@cs.ucla.edu> <72399223-0ab5-dbe4-5027-d929450a4df0@yandex.ru> <1a2d0454-baa4-9831-0e2c-4411eda1c2fe@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="29400"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 40671@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 29 01:12:11 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOc-0007X0-UD for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 01:12:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34898 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOb-0006iM-U0 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:12:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59532) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOU-0006iD-SP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOU-00064T-BJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:12:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:58532) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOT-00064O-Ui for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:12:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZOT-0007ur-Q7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:12:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 23:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 40671 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 40671-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B40671.158811547030367 (code B ref 40671); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 23:12:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 40671) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2020 23:11:10 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZNX-0007tW-8w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:11:09 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:35324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jTZNV-0007sy-8k for 40671@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:11:01 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E259516008D; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 5F-bwd11q1Xo; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D759160059; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id oJh-XGUCm4Wy; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8CFC516008D; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgptUUlOQkV5QWNtUUJFQURB QXlIMnhvVHU3cHBHNUQzYThGTVpFb243NGRDdmM0K3ExWEEySjJ0QnkycHdhVHFmCmhweHhk R0E5Smo1MFVKM1BENGJTVUVnTjh0TFowc2FuNDdsNVhUQUZMaTI0NTZjaVNsNW04c0thSGxH ZHQ5WG0KQUF0bVhxZVpWSVlYL1VGUzk2ZkR6ZjR4aEVtbS95N0xiWUVQUWRVZHh1NDd4QTVL aFRZcDVibHRGM1dZRHoxWQpnZDdneDA3QXV3cDdpdzdlTnZub0RUQWxLQWw4S1lEWnpiRE5D UUdFYnBZM2VmWkl2UGRlSStGV1FONFcra2doCnkrUDZhdTZQcklJaFlyYWV1YTdYRGRiMkxT MWVuM1NzbUUzUWpxZlJxSS9BMnVlOEpNd3N2WGUvV0szOEV6czYKeDc0aVRhcUkzQUZINmls QWhEcXBNbmQvbXNTRVNORnQ3NkRpTzFaS1FNcjlhbVZQa25qZlBtSklTcWRoZ0IxRApsRWR3 MzRzUk9mNlY4bVp3MHhmcVQ2UEtFNDZMY0ZlZnpzMGtiZzRHT1JmOHZqRzJTZjF0azVlVThN Qml5Ti9iClowM2JLTmpOWU1wT0REUVF3dVA4NGtZTGtYMndCeHhNQWhCeHdiRFZadWR6eERa SjFDMlZYdWpDT0pWeHEya2wKakJNOUVUWXVVR3FkNzVBVzJMWHJMdzYrTXVJc0hGQVlBZ1Jy NytLY3dEZ0JBZndoU In-Reply-To: <1a2d0454-baa4-9831-0e2c-4411eda1c2fe@yandex.ru> Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:179253 Archived-At: On 4/28/20 2:10 PM, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 28.04.2020 23:09, Paul Eggert wrote: >> The meaning used in the Elisp manual is reasonably close to its meaning in >> C/C++/Fortran/Common Lisp/etc., and that describes how Emacs behaves now. > > As we've pointed out, Elisp is a wildly different beast from C. And Elisp is also wildly different from Common Lisp, for some interpretation of "wildly different". But it's close enough in this area. I don't see why we should depart from terminology used by C/C++/Fortran/Common Lisp/etc.; it's reasonably well-established. >> I thought you were saying that we should distinguish among the types of >> constants and should say what happens when you modify each type. > Among the types of mutable values. Between the "normal" and "do not touch" ones. The "do not touch" values are called "constants" in the documentation now, just as they are in the documentation for the other languages. I don't see why values that should not change should be called "mutable". And even if we called these values "mutable", I don't see why the documentation should distinguish among the various types of "mutable" values that should not change. The whole area is messy and differs from release to release and from platform to platform. Programs should not change values-that-should-not-change and we shouldn't try to catalog what happens if programs do what they shouldn't, since it's complicated and we often don't even know what'll happen. Generally speaking, the Elisp documentation should just say "you shouldn't change these objects", like it does for C/C++/etc. > Could you first provide the list of your commits that changed the manual > pertaining to this discussion? You can run this shell command in the emacs-27 branch. git log --author=eggert --since='Apr 18 12:59:17 2020 -0700' > Write that line between fizzleworp and non-fizzleworp values. I don't understand this remark.