From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <> <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1396558780 10239 80.91.229.3 (3 Apr 2014 20:59:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:59:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 03 22:59:28 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WVojL-0003T8-RH for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:59:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46383 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WVojL-0001Ff-HG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:59:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34199) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WVojA-0001E0-C2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:59:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoj1-0000fm-CB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:59:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:33606) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoj1-0000fT-9B for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:59:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoj0-0004dS-Fy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:59:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16617 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16617-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16617.139655871117773 (code B ref 16617); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:59:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 20:58:31 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34788 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoiV-0004cb-9P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:58:31 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:42794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoiT-0004cS-8f for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:58:30 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s33KwRFs001786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:28 GMT Original-Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s33KwQ1g027848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:27 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33KwQjT027825; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:26 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:87730 Archived-At: > It's clear, I just don't agree that it's a problem. It is intended > behavior shared by many other Emacs commands. >=20 > > Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? > > Because '?' is a help character. 1. Not in most contexts, it is not. Did you type your reply message in Emacs? When you typed `?', did Emacs pop up a help buffer? If not, do you wish it had? 2. And `C-h' IS a help character in most contexts. And yet `C-q C-h' inserts a Control-Q character - it does NOT pop up a help buffer. So the argument that help characters must behave the way you claim just does not hold water. > > Why doesn't it just insert the character `?'? `C-q w' inserts the > > character `w'. Why should `C-q ?' act differently? >=20 > For the same reason "M-x ?" triggers a different response than "M-x w". 3. `?' is specifically bound to a help command, `minibuffer-completion-help= ', in `minibuffer-local-must-match-map'. It is not bound to a help char in the recipe I gave (e.g. in *scratch*). 4. And I specifically stated that THIS bug report is NOT for the cases where `?' is bound to a help command. Even though the same arguments hold for that rare case as well, I will not include it as part of this bug report. I'm willing to limit THIS bug report to the vast majority of cases: those in which `?' is NOT bound to a help character. > You can say this till Kingdom Come, it won't change the basic facts: > this is a very old feature, It is still a regression wrt even older behavior.=20 > and I at least see no reason to remove it, Too bad. > since Emacs behaves like that in many other commands. Name one. What is similar to this? > End of story. >=20 > > > I don't know why '?' should also be excluded > > > > It is an ordinary, printable, self-inserting character in the > > context I reported. >=20 > No, it isn't. It is a character that invokes help. No, it is NOT. Not in the contexts that THIS bug report is about. emacs -Q In *scratch*: `C-q ?' `?' is not a character that invokes help in *scratch*. Likewise in most buffers/modes. You try to distract us by giving an example of `?' in `minibuffer-local-must-match-map', where it IS a help character. That's a shame. And even there, I would argue (but not for this bug report) that `C-q ?' should just insert `?'. > > `C-q' is SUPPOSED to insert ordinary, self-inserting characters. >=20 > And "M-x" is supposed to echo the next word, but '?' still behaves > differently there. No, again a strawman. M-x does lots of things. And `?' is not a word-constituent in the minibuffer for M-x. It is not even self-inserting. It is 100% irrelevant to THIS bug. (Oh and BTW, IMO `?' *should* be self-inserting in the minibuffer.) > Just let go, Drew. You keep repeating the same arguments, and they > didn't fly the first time. Ditto. But I would suggest that you think a little more about this. Do I really care? Not so much, except in so far as I care about Emacs. I probably came across this bug by accidentally hitting `C-q ?' instead of `C-q C-?' or something - I really don't recall. As you point out, this has been broken for a long time. And I only recently noticed it. It doesn't bother me if you leave this broken forever. That would be too bad for Emacs (unclean), but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Have a nice day.