From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 08:16:45 +0200 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="40603"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 Cc: Karl Fogel To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 08:10:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ74Y-000ASr-08 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 08:10:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39852 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ74X-0004h3-07 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 02:10:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38154) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ73c-0002wv-F3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 02:09:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.24]:38145) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ73Z-0004Gk-AQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 02:09:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.178.39] ([94.134.177.53]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHG4c-1jLtec2Zyi-00DJoQ; Thu, 14 May 2020 08:09:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:XWDTuNEEpjnffXByLPzU9o9ctpgdvKCL80NskAPcnDhUHwQB59u 3EOYQTIMI0SP3ExWKGQAEWxhYbe7RSB7eqQyhyMSvoY/tjUZErub/3dnmCSigZD19Pd3qDL BXP2UUWBx+0jn8eI7a7jsS0137SUkT/3Zu59iYDiVdWcUk/kEE+okyeSkERNYd9epbYlozf rZ9wubTQm5034xd1+H5eA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:eAI0/ao07So=:Of/cWXDqbpcbym4QTahuHW hUA5effGe8Ft1gYyORJIVGh+FiBMJJu2O/ik3WnkuJ6CAm+rInlHjSkBHPrqcQafYLZI/gU3h Z4ehn1BTGV02Ca0Micz7WiK4ZxyV4Ds9Pbn5k8b/6yqoUMSf9D3IQbeYAcpzNaHd2rOQWBeBG bL8s6Yoas+57v6MU4D4gLmSZuMy4wGb1wrkC/oKUlpJ5ASRHzhroNYideC8/Rbm0POOpayk8L bbMt1bGK6qyo5JLQHAi6I/mDLvDiU33DuV2hMiMM2XuFgc9oX6BftFv6kNJrgM/4FKbdbLajV 7k6BcK2DAjA3XOMGwMOXw6hl2MJn1WVySHnwZ7/H5mvY9UGUaAo/h2pvERcjUtP5Znk6WYitM SIt43vZ5Eu9/Wj8UP6jmfn+Q3MbNP2cBYSagCOQM3K8Z06f58n4LoVyzkxjWAuK3A9A+nQNlp tTGFXjdAjiI0R764RvQ/7Id9IQE4C2QlKGY9H2JUEksLjQlWMyFtz7Rm4ZQ+w+vvydSA8EKX/ uUz3Nal1TNv1r2voycB2YLKirosWcv/W6NzN/V8+UgxecHfU4POTkpBvz5MnTiXWXvE3cgCTK i+TN8/RKa7Oha3/67/i71T+L6rWalhki4kg9xYSsknfS7f7yYU89j3dP4A1YYyZ39c1mHy4zE yEYFRNHA4Ko7vDKMco76CKJjcpW9AWWfyCYIjEQ2NYlEVWqUcSuoHKulgMdDZmRq5xB31YE82 LXVdrCyBHeqerPB2SZwbc9UFSrWttmSHox+FokfzAi5FdqC7VKXOqOeWTRODkIbjCAfvLT9n Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.24; envelope-from=andreas.roehler@online.de; helo=mout.kundenserver.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/14 02:09:18 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250211 Archived-At: On 13.05.20 22:05, Karl Fogel wrote: > On 13 May 2020, Andreas Röhler wrote: >> Agree with everything beside two last paragraphs. Enjoying the >> possibilities to extend and assisting new users being productive seems >> no contradiction. May you give an example where an smooth entrance >> hinders the power of more complex functionality? > The newcomer-vs-expert tradeoff is real, and it's pervasive throughout UI and UX design. > > One example is button-based functionality. For both experts and newcomers, those buttons/icons take away screen real estate -- but for newcomers they make features easier to find, so it's worth it. For experts, they *just* take away screen real estate, while providing little or no benefit. > > Use of small symbols to indicate state in the modeline is another area. Experienced users know what "**" in the mode line means, what "%" means, etc. Newcomers are frequently confused by the mode line; it is noise to them, until they know how to interpret it -- but that takes a bit of investment. Now, we could provide bigger, more verbose signs of current state -- but then we'd be taking away screen real estate again. > > Another area is the keybinding space and the minibuffer. Just about every time I have watched a new user use Emacs, I have noticed how frequently they accidentally hit some key combination or sequence and wind up in some weird state that they never meant to be in -- and don't know how to get out of. Often they have minibuffer prompts sitting around all the time, and are unaware that Emacs is asking them for some piece of information (after all, the user didn't mean to put Emacs into that state and has no idea she did so). But having those keybindings available is *good* for experts, as we know from personal experience. > > I could go on. I've taught many newcomers to Emacs, and often the things that are hardest for them are exactly the things that are *good* for the experienced user. Okay, thanks for the explanation. So we have two items - the way an intro is written and the real-case scenario WRT complexity and action. For the latter Emacs already provides some caveats - disabling some commands at the beginning, which works fine. Your observations WRT errors of beginners might be of great value. Is there a way to collect these difficulties? Maybe the difference between a beginners state and advanced state might be extended? Having a smooth introduction written by a didactically skilled person is another thing. IMHO exists not just a powerful tool but also some characteristic difficulties WRT beginners. The reason for the advantage as the disadvantage looks as the very same, it's mentioned in the founding tale of Emacs: exchanging code between developers. Thanks all, Andreas > > These design tradeoffs cannot be avoided. It would be a fallacy to think that it's always possible to be *both* maximally newcomer-friendly and investor-friendly. > > (The term "user-friendly" is itself misleading. There is no such thing as "a user" in a way that makes the term "user-friendly" meaningful. Better terms would at least attempt to make important distinctions -- "newcomer-friendly", "expert-friendly", "ADHD-friendly", "limited-movement-friendly", "visually-impaired-friendly", etc -- and would encourage designers to understand that being good in some categories means being bad in others.) > > Best regards, > -Karl >