On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 11:22:12AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 23/09/2024 12:54, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> A similar problem exists in Vim as well. It has its own "keyboard layout"
> switch C-^ (:set keymap), :set langmap to alleviate the issue with
> alternative layout active at the XKB layer, and various tricks to change XKB
> layout on switch from insert to normal mode
> <https://github.com/lyokha/vim-xkbswitch>
> 
> My perception is that heavy usage of modifiers and multikey bindings in
> Emacs outweighs necessity to escape from insert mode in Vim, so switching
> keyboard for any command is more annoying.

:-)

I share your perception: it weighs more. But currently, to me, swithching
the layout feels the least ugly alternative. Input strategy changes, and
tends to batch command actions while typing. 

> On 21/09/2024 12:40, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > Surprisingly, some applications seem to magically "cope" in some way. In
> > Firefox, CTRL-τ opens a new tab (as CTRL-t would do under a Latin layout).
> > But this doesn't really count: Firefox has just a few useful keybindings
> > and the whole model actually discourages using them, while Emacs has
> > a very rich set of bindings which is at the core of its user interaction.
> 
> Most of applications, including Firefox, use Alt+something to access menus
> and accelerator keys for selecting menu items. It requires switching
> keyboard layout to match application locale and it is pain. Only some
> hotkeys work with both keyboard layouts.

Cοntrol sequences /sometimes/ work in the browser [1] and sometimes not
(which is what I've come to expect from that kind of application:
inconsistency keeps users humble). For example, C-w to close a tab (which
would be C-ς in the Greek layout) works, whereas C-q (Greek layout: C-;)
to close the whole frame doesn't. 

Of note is that C-q doesn't work on Windows at all (and whines a lot on
Linux [2]), so perhaps we are seeing through several archeological UI
layers. But perhaps there's just someone editing C- mappings for every
possible keyboard layout under the sun and has forgotten that one.

Cheers
[1] browser == firefox, current Debian stable
[2] You sure you want to close me? Oooooh!
-- 
t