Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove

[Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>]

Hello, Daniel.

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 09:51:41 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote:


> On June 26, 2024 9:22:10 AM EDT, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> >On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 07:44:19 -0400, Daniel Colascione wrote:


> >> On June 26, 2024 7:23:38 AM EDT, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >> >> From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@jeremybryant.net>
> >> >> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>,  dancol@dancol.org,  acm@muc.de,
> >> >>   stefankangas@gmail.com,  monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >> >> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:26:47 +0100

> >> >> 1.
> >> >> I also find that C-x 4 is indeed logical, which makes it easier to remember

> >> >> 2.
> >> >> C-x 4 .. works on the terminal/console.  This is important for
> >> >> preserving functionality of Emacs.

> >> >I still hope that someone will tell what is exactly the request here,
> >> >given that windmove-mode is on by default and its commands are
> >> >autoloaded.

> >> To be clear, my proposal is to bind C-x 4 <arrow> in the default
> >> global keymap to the corresponding directional windmove commands and
> >> to bind the shifted versions of these keys to the state swapping
> >> versions of these movement commands. IOW, in emacs -Q, C-x 4 LEFT
> >> should move left.

> >That doesn't clear up all that much.  The answers to "why?" are missing.
> >I don't think there need to be such bindings in the default keymap.

> >As Eli said, windmove is autoloaded, including its command
> >windmove-default-keybindings.  By default, this binds S-<up> etc., which
> >strike me as better bindings than C-x 4 <up> etc. for anybody not using
> >these bindings for anything else.  C-x 4 <up> might be convenient for
> >those on tty's whose keyboard layout lacks <modifier(s)>-<up>, but
> >hardly on a GUI Emacs.

> >Possibly, windmove-default-keybindings could be enhanced to allow a
> >prefix key binding to be given as an alternative to a set of modifiers.
> >Possibly.

> >So, currently, windmove is easily available to anybody that wants it,
> >and doesn't "waste" the key bindings of those who don't.

> There is no "waste". We've gone over this at length. People who want to
> bind these keys can bind them still. Nobody is hurt by default bindings
> being present, and all the arguments I've seen against these bindings
> are also arguments against having default bindings at all.

And round and round we go once more...  Just the puerile strawman again,
about either definitely needing these new default bindings or not needing
any default bindings whatsoever.

What makes you think that unneeded default bindings don't hurt?  I don't
think you've justified that at all in the current thread.

> There's no need to augment the binding function with a new parameter.
> Anyone who can use the new parameter can just bind the keys directly.
> The point is that out of the box Emacs should be useful and useable,
> that the lack of default bindings for windmove makes it less so, and
> that there's little downside to adding these bindings. 

No.  If anything, Emacs has too many default keybindings, making it
more difficult to learn than it would otherwise be.  I'm not arguing for
removing bindings, but I say we should be generally averse to adding new
ones without very good reasons.  I'm trying to get you to argue why there
are very good reasons in this particular case.  Other than saying you
like windmove, you seem loathe to do so.

> > Why is the current state unsatisfactory, and why do you want to make
> > these new bindings?

> Because it's useful to navigate windows positionally as well as
> temporally. Other-window often has unpredictable effects and navigating
> with windmove DWIM.

There are hundreds of other commands it would "be useful to be able to
do".  What is special about windmove, that it should get special
treatment, beyond its current special treatment of being autoloaded?

You haven't answered the first question: why is the current state, where
anybody who wants to can easily use windmove, unsatisfactory?

It's useful to you personally to be able to "navigate windows
positionally", but to me, and likely the majority of Emacs users who
don't use it already, it's not at all useful.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).