From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Followup-To: gmane.emacs.tangents Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:00:08 +0200 Message-ID: References: <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bkeeoqf3.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YfBbW1jeE/V/aX7Z" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14454"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 07 09:00:54 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe90Y-0003Y1-AE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:00:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe90B-0005rG-7K; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:00:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8zw-0005kn-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:00:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8zs-0003ou-1u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 03:00:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mBTDr03AiVlqRUwcKsDqO8VHrGFn6Xbp1/Fg3Vko+7U=; b=nJ/gJwIm0dlM3j1G4oUqDSZm80 Vd1zu1X5oBUX4gRdZ7HTwCxId1Zm4Vo8iigMf7kWUwENKyIim7ApUyF76Wx2PWxT5xhPSbZeZSH2I cvBuQi/btxDDiREpIAw3MfWJY8eox6BjX/ZrIBH9JHj95kCM6Y2xpA1xTcszaYwYyS8HSnHU602nY blI40pePT7P5V0+1hJJvfiaMW6gPw7ZKVXddAtT+nvCuMBNlz1vl91qyZGZu9oK9uiRwmO0vtqKeH PropcYbslxCglXhg2xH34Ymd0Ol1tISmbwaL0Te7CFTSUlm8ckkGWHvdyv3LysfBy8V4YHiryJyk/ Eyjt73IQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1qe8zo-0002py-JQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:00:08 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: emacs-tangents@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87bkeeoqf3.fsf@dataswamp.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310237 Archived-At: --YfBbW1jeE/V/aX7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 07, 2023 at 01:03:28AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote: [Setting mail-followup-to, in the hopes to redirect this thread to a more appropriate place] > Alan Mackenzie wrote: >=20 > >> I don't know why you reject them as clumsy, but why does it > >> matter to us if a tool includes features we don't use? > > > > It matters a very great deal. In practice you cannot avoid > > "using" these features if you have to understand or debug > > somebody else's code. >=20 > But it is up to him/her how [s]he writes his/her code. This is absolutely na=C3=AFve. A language (a computer language, too) is a communication device, and therefore inherently a social construct. There's always a tension (and different languages solve this in different ways) between allowing too much width (and thus creating different, possibly disjoint subcultures (cf. C++) and unifying too much, thus suffocating possible creativity. There's no (technically) "right solution" to this social question. In the case of Emacs Lisp, we'll have to accept that people like Richard and Eli carry more weight in those questions than you and me, be it because they've put orders of magnitude more of work in there than us. Cheers --=20 t --YfBbW1jeE/V/aX7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iFwEABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCZPl08gAKCRAFyCz1etHa RtMLAJjnaPxfNjMGHEsevd6dkN9UKzQpAJ40o0JECoHiVuI60GeK+iY0CBzbig== =eL4l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YfBbW1jeE/V/aX7Z--