Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

I want to use spaces rather than tabs, but need to do this setting by a major mode hook?

How can this be done exactly?

Cholden

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 21:39, goncholden via Users list for the GNU
Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> I want to use spaces rather than tabs, but need to do this setting by a major mode hook?
>
> How can this be done exactly?

    (defun my-indent-with-spaces ()
      (setq-local indent-tabs-mode nil))
    (add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)
    (add-hook 'js-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)


Alternatively, use spaces by default and only use tabs for specific modes:

    (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
    (defun my-indent-with-tabs ()
      (setq-local indent-tabs-mode t))
    (add-hook 'c++-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)
    (add-hook 'c-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)


Or use spaces everywhere by default and only use tabs for specific
modes in specific projects where prescribed by coding convention:

    (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)

In your project’s root directory, put a .dir-locals.el:

    ((c++-mode
      (indent-tabs-mode . t)
     (c-mode
      (indent-tabs-mode . t)))

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 3:12 AM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 21:39, goncholden via Users list for the GNU
> Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org wrote:
>
> > I want to use spaces rather than tabs, but need to do this setting by a major mode hook?
> >
> > How can this be done exactly?
>
>
> (defun my-indent-with-spaces ()
> (setq-local indent-tabs-mode nil))
> (add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)
> (add-hook 'js-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)
>
>
> Alternatively, use spaces by default and only use tabs for specific modes:
>
> (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
> (defun my-indent-with-tabs ()
> (setq-local indent-tabs-mode t))
> (add-hook 'c++-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)
> (add-hook 'c-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)
>
>
> Or use spaces everywhere by default and only use tabs for specific
> modes in specific projects where prescribed by coding convention:
>
> (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
>
> In your project’s root directory, put a .dir-locals.el:
>
> ((c++-mode
> (indent-tabs-mode . t)
> (c-mode
> (indent-tabs-mode . t)))

Yuri, could you introspect the benefits between the last two alternatives?

1. Using spaces by default and tabs for specific modes.
2. Use spaces everywhere and tabs for specific modes.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 22:30, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Yuri, could you introspect the benefits between the last two alternatives?

If you work alone on your personal projects, you can have a global
policy that sets indent-tabs-mode depending only on the major mode.

If you collaborate with others, some projects will have a coding
convention different from your personal preferences. Most of the time,
you will not be able to convince the project maintainers to change the
convention, so you will need to abide by it. Directory-local variables
are a powerful tool for such cases.

You can use a combination of the two approaches: A global default, a
personal hook-based policy, and per-project directory-local overrides
where necessary.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 3:46 AM, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:


> On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 22:30, goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > Yuri, could you introspect the benefits between the last two alternatives?
>
>
> If you work alone on your personal projects, you can have a global
> policy that sets indent-tabs-mode depending only on the major mode.
>
> If you collaborate with others, some projects will have a coding
> convention different from your personal preferences. Most of the time,
> you will not be able to convince the project maintainers to change the
> convention, so you will need to abide by it. Directory-local variables
> are a powerful tool for such cases.

I am the project maintainer and prefer spaces because things could look
different on other people’s computers. When using tabs people know they
actually consist of two spaces or four spaces or whatever they decided.
But that information gets lost.

> You can use a combination of the two approaches: A global default, a
> personal hook-based policy, and per-project directory-local overrides
> where necessary.

I would like to use a combination, using spaces except for cases where
some tabs are a requirement of the language.

What is best in such case?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 23:13, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to use a combination, using spaces except for cases where
> some tabs are a requirement of the language.
>
> What is best in such case?

Major modes where spaces or tabs are syntactically significant, such
as makefile-mode and python-mode, already override indent-tabs-mode.

Set indent-tabs-mode for your global preference. Deal with exceptions
on a case-by-case basis, when and if you encounter them.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 3:30 AM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 3:12 AM, Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 9 Jun 2022 at 21:39, goncholden via Users list for the GNU
> > Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org wrote:
> >
> > > I want to use spaces rather than tabs, but need to do this setting by a major mode hook?
> > >
> > > How can this be done exactly?
> >
> > (defun my-indent-with-spaces ()
> > (setq-local indent-tabs-mode nil))
> > (add-hook 'emacs-lisp-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)
> > (add-hook 'js-mode 'my-indent-with-spaces)
> >
> > Alternatively, use spaces by default and only use tabs for specific modes:
> >
> > (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
> > (defun my-indent-with-tabs ()
> > (setq-local indent-tabs-mode t))
> > (add-hook 'c++-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)
> > (add-hook 'c-mode 'my-indent-with-tabs)
> >
> > Or use spaces everywhere by default and only use tabs for specific
> > modes in specific projects where prescribed by coding convention:
> >
> > (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)
> >
> > In your project’s root directory, put a .dir-locals.el:
> >
> > ((c++-mode
> > (indent-tabs-mode . t)
> > (c-mode
> > (indent-tabs-mode . t)))

Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change show the tabs as spaces?  I would rather have the file show as it is.  If there are tabs in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them as spaces?

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change
> show the tabs as spaces?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> I would rather have the file show as it is.  If there are tabs
> in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them as
> spaces?

What does the doc tell you?

  Indentation can insert tabs if this is non-nil.
                  ^^^^^^

It's about inserting whitespace chars when you
indent text, or when Emacs does that for you.

It's not about what is displayed.  And there's no
changing of what's already there - unless you
edit in such a way that things get reindented.

So no, other than editing, existing TAB chars remain.

To change TAB chars to SPC chars, use `M-x untabify'.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change
> show the tabs as spaces?
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I would rather have the file show as it is.  If there are tabs
> in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them as
> spaces?

What does the doc tell you?

  Indentation can insert tabs if this is non-nil.
                  ^^^^^^

It's about inserting whitespace chars when you
indent text, or when Emacs does that for you.

It's not about what is displayed.  And there's no
changing of what's already there - unless you
edit in such a way that things get reindented.

So no, other than editing, existing TAB chars remain.

To change TAB chars to SPC chars, use `M-x untabify'.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Tassilo Horn]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

>> > ((c++-mode
>> > (indent-tabs-mode . t)
>> > (c-mode
>> > (indent-tabs-mode . t)))
>
> Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change show the tabs as
> spaces?  I would rather have the file show as it is.  If there are
> tabs in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them
> as spaces?

It doesn't affect how tabs/spaces are displayed.  It just defines if
emacs' indentation commands may insert tabs.  Even with indent-tabs-mode
set to nil, you can still manually insert a TAB using C-q TAB.

If you want to convert a file from/to tabs, you can use the commands
tabify and untabify.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 7:24 AM, Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > > > ((c++-mode
> > > > (indent-tabs-mode . t)
> > > > (c-mode
> > > > (indent-tabs-mode . t)))
> >
> > Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change show the tabs as
> > spaces? I would rather have the file show as it is. If there are
> > tabs in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them
> > as spaces?
>
>
> It doesn't affect how tabs/spaces are displayed. It just defines if
> emacs' indentation commands may insert tabs. Even with indent-tabs-mode
> set to nil, you can still manually insert a TAB using C-q TAB.
>
> If you want to convert a file from/to tabs, you can use the commands
> tabify and untabify.
>
> Bye,
> Tassilo

Makes sense but I find it somewhat complicated.

It works well if I press return and get indentation with spaces.  But if someone presses the tab key, why does it not accept that tab?

I would like to be able to introduce a tab with the tab key but indent with spaces.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Tassilo Horn]

The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other key and TAB to self-insert-command.

HTH,
Tassilo

09.06.2022 21:40:26 goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>:

> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 7:24 AM, Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>> 
>>>>> ((c++-mode
>>>>> (indent-tabs-mode . t)
>>>>> (c-mode
>>>>> (indent-tabs-mode . t)))
>>> 
>>> Suppose I have a file with tabs, would the change show the tabs as
>>> spaces? I would rather have the file show as it is. If there are
>>> tabs in the file, would (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) show them
>>> as spaces?
>> 
>> 
>> It doesn't affect how tabs/spaces are displayed. It just defines if
>> emacs' indentation commands may insert tabs. Even with indent-tabs-mode
>> set to nil, you can still manually insert a TAB using C-q TAB.
>> 
>> If you want to convert a file from/to tabs, you can use the commands
>> tabify and untabify.
>> 
>> Bye,
>> Tassilo
> 
> Makes sense but I find it somewhat complicated.
> 
> It works well if I press return and get indentation with spaces.  But if someone presses the tab key, why does it not accept that tab?
> 
> I would like to be able to introduce a tab with the tab key but indent with spaces.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 21:54:27 +0200 (GMT+02:00)
> From: Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org>
> Cc: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other key and TAB to self-insert-command.

Or use "C-q TAB" to insert a literal TAB no matter what command TAB is
bound to.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 5:39 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2022 21:54:27 +0200 (GMT+02:00)
> > From: Tassilo Horn tsdh@gnu.org
> > Cc: Yuri Khan yuri.v.khan@gmail.com, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other key and TAB to self-insert-command.
>
>
> Or use "C-q TAB" to insert a literal TAB no matter what command TAB is
> bound to.

A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional.  RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
key introducing a literal tab.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather
> than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional.
> RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
> key introducing a literal tab.

That feels very unnatural.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 6:08 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather
> > than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional.
> > RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
> > key introducing a literal tab.
>
>
> That feels very unnatural.

Why so?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[tomas]

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On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 02:08:29PM +0800, Po Lu wrote:
> goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:
> 
> > A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather
> > than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional.
> > RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
> > key introducing a literal tab.
> 
> That feels very unnatural.

Agreed.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 05:46:44 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other key and TAB to self-insert-command.
> >
> >
> > Or use "C-q TAB" to insert a literal TAB no matter what command TAB is
> > bound to.
> 
> A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional.  RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
> key introducing a literal tab.

No, that would be a step back.  TAB is important because it re-indents
the current line, so you don't need to type RET and insert a newline
if all you want is re-indentation.

It is a relatively rare situation where you need to insert a literal
TAB, so having it bound to self-insert-command would be much less
useful than its current binding.

I think your current views are because you are trying to fight Emacs
features instead of using them to your benefit.  Why do you need to
insert literal TABs so much?  You never explained that.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 6:41 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 05:46:44 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > > The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other key and TAB to self-insert-command.
> > >
> > > Or use "C-q TAB" to insert a literal TAB no matter what command TAB is
> > > bound to.
> >
> > A superior choice would be to all TAB to be a tab by default, rather than binding to some other thing, making the key non-functional. RETURN could introduce indentation, but with the tab
> > key introducing a literal tab.
>
>
> No, that would be a step back. TAB is important because it re-indents
> the current line, so you don't need to type RET and insert a newline
> if all you want is re-indentation.
>
> It is a relatively rare situation where you need to insert a literal
> TAB, so having it bound to self-insert-command would be much less
> useful than its current binding.
>
> I think your current views are because you are trying to fight Emacs
> features instead of using them to your benefit. Why do you need to
> insert literal TABs so much? You never explained that.

It usually happens with legacy code where people used tabs most times.  Then if the setting in for spaces, the file would end with a mix of tabs and spaces.  Indentation could get mixed up this way.  What could be a solution?  Still with 'C-q TAB' ?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 07:42:19 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > I think your current views are because you are trying to fight Emacs
> > features instead of using them to your benefit. Why do you need to
> > insert literal TABs so much? You never explained that.
> 
> It usually happens with legacy code where people used tabs most times.  Then if the setting in for spaces, the file would end with a mix of tabs and spaces.  Indentation could get mixed up this way.  What could be a solution?  Still with 'C-q TAB' ?

One solution is to mark the portion of the buffer (or the entire
buffer), then use either "M-x tabify" (if you want to have a mix of
TABs and SPACEs) or "M-x untabify" (if you want to have only SPACEs).
After you do one of these, the setting of indent-tabs-mode will take
care of the new/modified code.

Another possibility, for the code where each indentation level is made
only out of TABs, is to set the indentation levels to correspond to
the existing code.  Then TAB will always insert only literal TAB
characters, due to the setting of tab stops.

I'm not yet sure I understand what situation you describe, so the
answer is somewhat ambiguous and imprecise.  I suggest to tell more
and perhaps show an example, so that the advice could be more to the
point.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

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------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 7:50 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 07:42:19 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > I think your current views are because you are trying to fight Emacs
> > > features instead of using them to your benefit. Why do you need to
> > > insert literal TABs so much? You never explained that.
> >
> > It usually happens with legacy code where people used tabs most times. Then if the setting in for spaces, the file would end with a mix of tabs and spaces. Indentation could get mixed up this way. What could be a solution? Still with 'C-q TAB' ?
>
>
> One solution is to mark the portion of the buffer (or the entire
> buffer), then use either "M-x tabify" (if you want to have a mix of
> TABs and SPACEs) or "M-x untabify" (if you want to have only SPACEs).
> After you do one of these, the setting of indent-tabs-mode will take
> care of the new/modified code.
>
> Another possibility, for the code where each indentation level is made
> only out of TABs, is to set the indentation levels to correspond to
> the existing code. Then TAB will always insert only literal TAB
> characters, due to the setting of tab stops.
>
> I'm not yet sure I understand what situation you describe, so the
> answer is somewhat ambiguous and imprecise. I suggest to tell more
> and perhaps show an example, so that the advice could be more to the
> point.

Have attached a file.  When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
and the code ends up in column 1.  Strange things are happening with tab.




[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: amp_hist.f --]
[-- Type: text/x-fortran; name=amp_hist.f, Size: 2551 bytes --]

C   
C   
C	ROUTINE: AMP_HIST
C   
C	VERSION: V01
C
C	VECTOR:  OFF
C   
C	PURPOSE: To measure populations of amplitude in user_supplied
C		 bins. Also returns counts of samples above and below
C		 the defined histogram.
C		 This routine will not count zero samples in the front 
C		 or back-end mute zones, but it will count zeros elsewhere.
C
C	CALLED BY: XPAMPSCN
C
C	USAGE: CALL AMP_HIST (ADATA,N,ABIN,ZBIN,NBIN,POP8)
c
C	Where:
C
C	(I)	ADATA   	Trace of N samples.
C	(I)	N		Number of samples in ADATA.
C  	(I)	ABIN		Lowest bin threshold
C	(I)	ZBIN		Highest bin threshold 
C	(I)	NBIN		Number of bins to create in range ABIN to ZBIN
C	(O)	POP8		REAL*8 array of dimension (0:NBIN+1) returned 
C				with sample population in each bin (1 thru N),
C				plus:
C				POP8(0)   = no. values below lower limit
C				POP.(N+1) = no. values beyond higher limit
C				The calling program clears POP8 at the start
C				of the job (or whenever it wants to start 
C				collecting data for a new histogram).
C				This array needs to be REAL*8 as neither
C				INTEGER*4 or REAL*4 would provide enough
C				dynamic range for a big 3D dataset.	
C
C-----------------------------------------------------------------------
C   
C	UPDATE HISTORY   
C   
C	  V01 - JUN 2001 - SHM
C		Initial release on UNIX.
C
C$$$$-------------------------------------------------------------------
C
	SUBROUTINE AMP_HIST (ADATA,N,ABIN,ZBIN,NBIN,POP8)
	IMPLICIT NONE
C
C Arguments
C
	REAL ADATA(*)
	INTEGER N
	REAL ABIN, ZBIN		! lower and upper bin limits 
	INTEGER NBIN		! no bins
	DOUBLE PRECISION POP8(0:N+1)	! output population array 
C
C Local
	REAL DELTA
	REAL AA
	INTEGER I, IBIN
	INTEGER MUTE_F, MUTE_B
C
	DELTA=(ZBIN-ABIN)/REAL(NBIN)
cc	PRINT *,'Bin Thresholds:'
cc	PRINT *,((ABIN+I*DELTA), I=0,NBIN)

C In order to make as sensible an analysis as possible, we
C first scan the trace for front-end and back-end mute, so we
C do not include a lot of man-made zeros in our estimate.
C If trace is dead, FBMUTES returns MUTE_F=N.
C
	CALL FBMUTES(ADATA,N,MUTE_F,MUTE_B)
	IF(MUTE_F.LT.N) THEN
C
C Add one so that lowest bin no is 1.
C As our bin indexing starts from 0, 
C we use POP8(0) to record samples that are lower than ABIN
C and  POP8(N+1) to record samples that are greater than ZBIN.
C
	  DO I=MUTE_F+1, N-MUTE_B
	    AA=(ADATA(I) - ABIN)/DELTA
	    IBIN=INT(AA) + 1
	    IF(ADATA(I).LT.ABIN) THEN
		IBIN=0
	    ELSEIF (ADATA(I).GT.ZBIN) THEN
		IBIN=NBIN+1
	    ENDIF
	    POP8(IBIN)=POP8(IBIN)+1.0D0
ccc	    PRINT *,I,ADATA(I),aa,IBIN,POP8(IBIN)
	  ENDDO	
	ENDIF
	RETURN
	END

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 08:31:47 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > I'm not yet sure I understand what situation you describe, so the
> > answer is somewhat ambiguous and imprecise. I suggest to tell more
> > and perhaps show an example, so that the advice could be more to the
> > point.
> 
> Have attached a file.  When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> and the code ends up in column 1.  Strange things are happening with tab.

In what line do you see this?  And in which version of Emacs?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Friday, June 10th, 2022 at 10:49 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 08:31:47 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > I'm not yet sure I understand what situation you describe, so the
> > > answer is somewhat ambiguous and imprecise. I suggest to tell more
> > > and perhaps show an example, so that the advice could be more to the
> > > point.
> >
> > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
>
>
> In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?

I am using version 27.2

For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section.  Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:10:15 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
> >
> >
> > In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?
> 
> I am using version 27.2
> 
> For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section.  Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.

Doesn't happen here with Emacs 27.2 invoked as "emacs -Q".  Did you
try that in "emacs -Q"?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:33 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:10:15 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > > > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
> > >
> > > In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?
> >
> > I am using version 27.2
> >
> > For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section. Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.
>
>
> Doesn't happen here with Emacs 27.2 invoked as "emacs -Q". Did you
> try that in "emacs -Q"?

With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab.  If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.  I am using a Dvorak Keybinding setup, do not know if that changes things.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:40:59 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> 
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:33 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:10:15 +0000
> > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > >
> > > > > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > > > > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
> > > >
> > > > In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?
> > >
> > > I am using version 27.2
> > >
> > > For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section. Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.
> >
> >
> > Doesn't happen here with Emacs 27.2 invoked as "emacs -Q". Did you
> > try that in "emacs -Q"?
> 
> With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab.  If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.

That's the intended and correct behavior of TAB in
programming-language modes.  What is the problem with it?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:44 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:40:59 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:33 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> >
> > > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:10:15 +0000
> > > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > >
> > > > > > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > > > > > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
> > > > >
> > > > > In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?
> > > >
> > > > I am using version 27.2
> > > >
> > > > For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section. Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.
> > >
> > > Doesn't happen here with Emacs 27.2 invoked as "emacs -Q". Did you
> > > try that in "emacs -Q"?
> >
> > With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab. If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.
>
>
> That's the intended and correct behavior of TAB in
> programming-language modes. What is the problem with it?

It is a problem because the authors of the code used multiple tab inserts for indentation as well.  This rejects the use of emacs outright.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:52 AM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:44 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:40:59 +0000
> > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > >
> > > ------- Original Message -------
> > > On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:33 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:10:15 +0000
> > > > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Have attached a file. When I press tab, the tab actually gets removed
> > > > > > > and the code ends up in column 1. Strange things are happening with tab.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In what line do you see this? And in which version of Emacs?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am using version 27.2
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance, it happens when I go to the beginning of each line in the Arguments Section. Pressing TAB on the first column removed the tab.
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't happen here with Emacs 27.2 invoked as "emacs -Q". Did you
> > > > try that in "emacs -Q"?
> > >
> > > With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab. If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.
> >
> > That's the intended and correct behavior of TAB in
> > programming-language modes. What is the problem with it?
>
>
> It is a problem because the authors of the code used multiple tab inserts for indentation as well. This rejects the use of emacs outright.

Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late 80's and early 90's.  Have a good hunch that they were old fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of moving to Fortran 90.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

> Or use spaces everywhere by default and only use tabs for
> specific modes in specific projects where prescribed by
> coding convention

It's mandatory in GNU make, even. It's not that strong
a convention in C and C++, is it?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Yuri Khan wrote:

> Major modes where spaces or tabs are syntactically
> significant, such as makefile-mode and python-mode, already
> override indent-tabs-mode.
>
> Set indent-tabs-mode for your global preference. Deal with
> exceptions on a case-by-case basis, when and if you
> encounter them.

Newlines are also syntactically significant here and there and
it's a slanting plane:

#! /bin/zsh
#
# this file:
#   https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/music

play-music () {
    clear
    local dir=~/mm/m

    mpv \
        --no-resume-playback \
        --shuffle            \
        --vo=null            \
        --volume=37          \
                             ${dir}/**/*.(mkv|mp4|webm)(N)
}

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 11:17 AM, Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> wrote:


> Yuri Khan wrote:
>
> > Major modes where spaces or tabs are syntactically
> > significant, such as makefile-mode and python-mode, already
> > override indent-tabs-mode.

Have found that fortran-mode suffers from problems for legacy code programming styles.

> > Set indent-tabs-mode for your global preference. Deal with
> > exceptions on a case-by-case basis, when and if you
> > encounter them.

That would require quite an effort for a user to set up.  It is  better for Emacs to have the functionality available and let the user select them on or off.

> Newlines are also syntactically significant here and there and
> it's a slanting plane:
>
> #! /bin/zsh
> #
> # this file:
> # https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/music
>
> play-music () {
> clear
> local dir=~/mm/m
>
> mpv \
> --no-resume-playback \
> --shuffle \
> --vo=null \
> --volume=37 \
> ${dir}/**/*.(mkv|mp4|webm)(N)
> }
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Tassilo Horn wrote:

> The TAB key is usually bound to some indentation command
> such as indent-according-to-mode. So bind that to some other
> key and TAB to self-insert-command.

How do I tweak the indentation of emacs-lisp-mode?

I could use

(setq damn-truth
  "He was such a straight shooter")

instead of

(setq damn-truth
      "He was such a straightshooter.")


by default?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:52:11 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab. If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.
> >
> >
> > That's the intended and correct behavior of TAB in
> > programming-language modes. What is the problem with it?
> 
> It is a problem because the authors of the code used multiple tab inserts for indentation as well.

When you visit that Fortran file, look at the "Fortran" item in the
menu bar.  Click Fortran->Customization->Fortran->Fortran Indent, and
you will see a menu that allows you to customize many aspects of the
indentation of Fortran source files.

Alternatively, type

  M-x customize-group RET fortran-indent RET

and you will be presented with a buffer showing the customizable
options that control indentation in buffers under Fortran mode.

By modifying these options to match the style used by the authors of
the files whcih you need to edit, you can resolve those issues once
and for all, such that typing TAB at the beginning of a line that is
already indented according to conventions will not change anything,
and indenting a new line you add will follow these conventions, like
using a literal TAB for each inner indentation level.  All it takes is
to customize the indentation such that indentation levels are on
multiples of 8 columns, then indent-tabs-mode set to t will insert
literal TABs automatically.  For example, there's an option that
customizes the indentation of the IF body, another option for DO body,
etc.

> This rejects the use of emacs outright.

Such a confidence from someone who has yet so much to learn about
Emacs in general and indentation in particular...

Given the state of your knowledge in the related areas of Emacs, may I
suggest some humility?  Like asking a question instead of knee-jerking
a reaction that is not based on reality in any way?  This could very
well result in more people answering your questions, and in your
learning what you need to learn much faster and more thoroughly.
Because helping someone with such an attitude is not a very satisfying
task.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:56:25 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late 80's and early 90's.  Have a good hunch that they were old fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of moving to Fortran 90.

Once again, please drop the attitude, it isn't helping us help you
solve your problems with using Emacs indentation commands to your
advantage.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late
>> 80's and early 90's. Have a good hunch that they were old
>> fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of
>> moving to Fortran 90.
>
> Once again, please drop the attitude

Do it yourself Eli :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 00:05:25 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > Yuri Khan wrote:
> >
> > > Major modes where spaces or tabs are syntactically
> > > significant, such as makefile-mode and python-mode, already
> > > override indent-tabs-mode.
> 
> Have found that fortran-mode suffers from problems for legacy code programming styles.

Actually, what we found is that you personally didn't bother to look
for and find the customization options which would allow Emacs to
support such legacy code 100%.

> > > Set indent-tabs-mode for your global preference. Deal with
> > > exceptions on a case-by-case basis, when and if you
> > > encounter them.
> 
> That would require quite an effort for a user to set up.

That setup should be done only once.  When you complete doing it, and
save the customized options, they will be used thereafter for the
other files.  There are also facilities to make those customizations
effective only for files under a certain directory, in case changing
them globally is not what you want.

> It is  better for Emacs to have the functionality available and let the user select them on or off.

See my other message: this is already available.  You just didn't
bother using it or even reading about it.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 763 bytes --]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 09:30:48AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late
> >> 80's and early 90's. Have a good hunch that they were old
> >> fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of
> >> moving to Fortran 90.
> >
> > Once again, please drop the attitude
> 
> Do it yourself Eli :)

First, quote correctly (the first part above was goncholden).
Second, Eli can't drop goncholden's attitude, only goncholden
can. I decided to stop communicating with her/him exactly
because of that [1] (I'm sincerely in awe of Eli's patience).

Cheers

[1] the straw that broke the camel's back in my case
   is calling people who disagree with them "idiots".
-- 
t

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --]

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:19 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2022 19:52:11 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > > With "emacs -Q" I can only introduce a single tab. If a tab already exists, the cursor goes to the start of the first character.
> > >
> > > That's the intended and correct behavior of TAB in
> > > programming-language modes. What is the problem with it?
> >
> > It is a problem because the authors of the code used multiple tab inserts for indentation as well.
>
>
> When you visit that Fortran file, look at the "Fortran" item in the
> menu bar. Click Fortran->Customization->Fortran->Fortran Indent, and
>
> you will see a menu that allows you to customize many aspects of the
> indentation of Fortran source files.
>
> Alternatively, type
>
> M-x customize-group RET fortran-indent RET
>
> and you will be presented with a buffer showing the customizable
> options that control indentation in buffers under Fortran mode.
>
> By modifying these options to match the style used by the authors of
> the files whcih you need to edit, you can resolve those issues once
> and for all, such that typing TAB at the beginning of a line that is
> already indented according to conventions will not change anything,
> and indenting a new line you add will follow these conventions, like
> using a literal TAB for each inner indentation level. All it takes is
> to customize the indentation such that indentation levels are on
> multiples of 8 columns, then indent-tabs-mode set to t will insert
> literal TABs automatically. For example, there's an option that
> customizes the indentation of the IF body, another option for DO body,
> etc.
>
> > This rejects the use of emacs outright.
>
>
> Such a confidence from someone who has yet so much to learn about
> Emacs in general and indentation in particular...
>
> Given the state of your knowledge in the related areas of Emacs, may I
> suggest some humility? Like asking a question instead of knee-jerking
> a reaction that is not based on reality in any way? This could very
> well result in more people answering your questions, and in your
> learning what you need to learn much faster and more thoroughly.
> Because helping someone with such an attitude is not a very satisfying
> task.

You have complicated the customisation tasks compared to all other languages.  This tab thing also happens with other languages such as C with multiple tabs.

Have not really seen elisp code to do this.  And for each supposedly solution, a multitude other problems crop up.  This is just so that I can modify some files.  The experience is that customisations and a big effort in themselves.  It has not been satisfying for me also, to end up with the huge number of customizable variables.

Certainly the original developers could introduce such tabs without spending a week trying to customise an editor.  There is no need to be humble.  I treat everybody rough as I treat myself.  Just seeing things the way they are.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 7:57 PM, <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:


> On Sat, Jun 11, 2022 at 09:30:48AM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
>
> > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> >
> > > > Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late
> > > > 80's and early 90's. Have a good hunch that they were old
> > > > fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of
> > > > moving to Fortran 90.
> > >
> > > Once again, please drop the attitude
> >
> > Do it yourself Eli :)
>
>
> First, quote correctly (the first part above was goncholden).
> Second, Eli can't drop goncholden's attitude, only goncholden
> can. I decided to stop communicating with her/him exactly
> because of that [1] (I'm sincerely in awe of Eli's patience).

Only useful answer was one line

(setq-local indent-tabs-mode nil))

Then using tabs needs a lengthy emacs configuration to be able to allow what others for sure did not take so much effort to do on their machines.  Stopping communication would also be good for me.

> Cheers
>
> [1] the straw that broke the camel's back in my case
> is calling people who disagree with them "idiots".
> --
> t

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:17:53 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> You have complicated the customisation tasks compared to all other languages.  This tab thing also happens with other languages such as C with multiple tabs.

Other languages usually have their own facilities for customizing
indentation.  For example, CC Mode even has an interactive command for
such customization, whereby you make the changes and immediately see
them reflected on display before you even decide the customized value
is good for you.  See the section "interactive Customization" in the
CC Mode's manual.

Different programming languages have different requirements and
conventions regarding indentation, so this has to be customized
separately for each major mode.

> Have not really seen elisp code to do this.  And for each supposedly solution, a multitude other problems crop up.  This is just so that I can modify some files.  The experience is that customisations and a big effort in themselves.  It has not been satisfying for me also, to end up with the huge number of customizable variables.

You pass negative judgment on features you didn't even seriously
bother trying to use.  There's no real value for such judgment.  As a
matter of fact, customizing indentation does solve the issues you
raised, and the assertion that "a multitude other problems crop up"
isn't based on any factual findings.  It does diminish the motivation
of trying to help you solve these issues.

> Just seeing things the way they are.

I wish you have.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 8:40 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:17:53 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > You have complicated the customisation tasks compared to all other languages. This tab thing also happens with other languages such as C with multiple tabs.
>
>
> Other languages usually have their own facilities for customizing
> indentation. For example, CC Mode even has an interactive command for
> such customization, whereby you make the changes and immediately see
> them reflected on display before you even decide the customized value
> is good for you. See the section "interactive Customization" in the
> CC Mode's manual.
>
> Different programming languages have different requirements and
> conventions regarding indentation, so this has to be customized
> separately for each major mode.

Ok.  But it seemed to me that for fortran I am limited on what I can do,
where the original developers did not.  For instance, how can I get the
tab key to just make a tab and pressing it again to make another tab.  As
I can do with spaces.

The comment about developers not wanting to move to Fortran 90 is true
because I worked with them.  Seen too many problems with old people at the
helm.  Not good at all.  So great we all die in the end !

> > Have not really seen elisp code to do this. And for each supposedly solution, a multitude other problems crop up. This is just so that I can modify some files. The experience is that customisations and a big effort in themselves. It has not been satisfying for me also, to end up with the huge number of customizable variables.
>
>
> You pass negative judgment on features you didn't even seriously
> bother trying to use. There's no real value for such judgment. As a
> matter of fact, customizing indentation does solve the issues you
> raised, and the assertion that "a multitude other problems crop up"
> isn't based on any factual findings. It does diminish the motivation
> of trying to help you solve these issues.
>
> > Just seeing things the way they are.
>
>
> I wish you have.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:57:54 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Ok.  But it seemed to me that for fortran I am limited on what I can do,
> where the original developers did not.

No, you aren't limited, it's the other way around: you have the Emacs
power at your fingertips, while they used some simpler editor that
placed the burden of indentation on the user.

> For instance, how can I get the tab key to just make a tab and
> pressing it again to make another tab.  As I can do with spaces.

You shouldn't need this, not at all.  If you set the indentation
levels and variables for the style of these files, typing TAB will
insert as many TAB characters as needed to get to the correct column.
For example, if the line should be indented 3 tab stops, typing TAB
just once will insert all the 3 TABs in one go.

That is what Emacs indentation commands are about: they insert the
whitespace as necessary according to your settings, so that you never
again should need to count TABs or insert them one by one.

You should embrace this powerful feature instead of fighting against
it.  It does need some setup to adapt to a particular style of
indentation, but that is one-time only, so really worth it.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 10:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:57:54 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > Ok. But it seemed to me that for fortran I am limited on what I can do,
> > where the original developers did not.
>
>
> No, you aren't limited, it's the other way around: you have the Emacs
> power at your fingertips, while they used some simpler editor that
> placed the burden of indentation on the user.

Correct, the editor placed the burden of adding tabs on the user.

> > For instance, how can I get the tab key to just make a tab and
> > pressing it again to make another tab. As I can do with spaces.
>
>
> You shouldn't need this, not at all. If you set the indentation
> levels and variables for the style of these files, typing TAB will
> insert as many TAB characters as needed to get to the correct column.
> For example, if the line should be indented 3 tab stops, typing TAB
> just once will insert all the 3 TABs in one go.
>
> That is what Emacs indentation commands are about: they insert the
> whitespace as necessary according to your settings, so that you never
> again should need to count TABs or insert them one by one.
>
> You should embrace this powerful feature instead of fighting against
> it. It does need some setup to adapt to a particular style of
> indentation, but that is one-time only, so really worth it.

The point here is that they do not have a specific style, meaning the styles vary, but emacs imposes some specific style that one has to set up.  And you cannot degress from it.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 10:20:39 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > > For instance, how can I get the tab key to just make a tab and
> > > pressing it again to make another tab. As I can do with spaces.
> >
> >
> > You shouldn't need this, not at all. If you set the indentation
> > levels and variables for the style of these files, typing TAB will
> > insert as many TAB characters as needed to get to the correct column.
> > For example, if the line should be indented 3 tab stops, typing TAB
> > just once will insert all the 3 TABs in one go.
> >
> > That is what Emacs indentation commands are about: they insert the
> > whitespace as necessary according to your settings, so that you never
> > again should need to count TABs or insert them one by one.
> >
> > You should embrace this powerful feature instead of fighting against
> > it. It does need some setup to adapt to a particular style of
> > indentation, but that is one-time only, so really worth it.
> 
> The point here is that they do not have a specific style, meaning the styles vary, but emacs imposes some specific style that one has to set up.  And you cannot degress from it.

Emacs doesn't impose any style.  By "style" I meant how many columns
should each construct be indented.  In Emacs, you can set all the
parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
customizations.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 10:20 PM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 10:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 08:57:54 +0000
> > > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > >
> > > Ok. But it seemed to me that for fortran I am limited on what I can do,
> > > where the original developers did not.
> >
> > No, you aren't limited, it's the other way around: you have the Emacs
> > power at your fingertips, while they used some simpler editor that
> > placed the burden of indentation on the user.
>
>
> Correct, the editor placed the burden of adding tabs on the user.
>
> > > For instance, how can I get the tab key to just make a tab and
> > > pressing it again to make another tab. As I can do with spaces.
> >
> > You shouldn't need this, not at all. If you set the indentation
> > levels and variables for the style of these files, typing TAB will
> > insert as many TAB characters as needed to get to the correct column.
> > For example, if the line should be indented 3 tab stops, typing TAB
> > just once will insert all the 3 TABs in one go.
> >
> > That is what Emacs indentation commands are about: they insert the
> > whitespace as necessary according to your settings, so that you never
> > again should need to count TABs or insert them one by one.
> >
> > You should embrace this powerful feature instead of fighting against
> > it. It does need some setup to adapt to a particular style of
> > indentation, but that is one-time only, so really worth it.
>
>


The point here is that they do not have a specific style, meaning the styles vary, but emacs imposes some specific style that one has to set up. And you cannot degress from it.

What is really needed is for me to instruct emacs to disregard style restrictions for some buffer.  Something that seems difficult to do.  The fact that you advise not to fight emacs is a problem in itself.

Is there a way to disable emacs indentation rules altogether?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 10:33 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 10:20:39 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > > For instance, how can I get the tab key to just make a tab and
> > > > pressing it again to make another tab. As I can do with spaces.
> > >
> > > You shouldn't need this, not at all. If you set the indentation
> > > levels and variables for the style of these files, typing TAB will
> > > insert as many TAB characters as needed to get to the correct column.
> > > For example, if the line should be indented 3 tab stops, typing TAB
> > > just once will insert all the 3 TABs in one go.
> > >
> > > That is what Emacs indentation commands are about: they insert the
> > > whitespace as necessary according to your settings, so that you never
> > > again should need to count TABs or insert them one by one.
> > >
> > > You should embrace this powerful feature instead of fighting against
> > > it. It does need some setup to adapt to a particular style of
> > > indentation, but that is one-time only, so really worth it.
> >
> > The point here is that they do not have a specific style, meaning the styles vary, but emacs imposes some specific style that one has to set up. And you cannot degress from it.
>
>
> Emacs doesn't impose any style. By "style" I meant how many columns
> should each construct be indented. In Emacs, you can set all the
> parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
> can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
> Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
> automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
> customizations.

Let me rephrase again.  Emacs imposes indentation rules by requiring said customisations.  These files have not been written by one person but a result of more than 35 years of work by an entire research department for a passive sonar system.  The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:15:59 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > Emacs doesn't impose any style. By "style" I meant how many columns
> > should each construct be indented. In Emacs, you can set all the
> > parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
> > can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
> > Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
> > automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
> > customizations.
> 
> Let me rephrase again.  Emacs imposes indentation rules by requiring said customisations.

Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
suit the indentation style.  That's a win by any measure.

> The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.

It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
file you posted.

Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
the defaults, like this:

   C-x h
   C-M-\

and then keep making changes without any customizations.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> How do I tweak the indentation of emacs-lisp-mode?
> 
> I could use
> 
> (setq damn-truth
>   "He was such a straight shooter")
> 
> instead of
> 
> (setq damn-truth
>       "He was such a straightshooter.")
> 
> by default?

(put 'setq 'lisp-indent-function 'defun)
(setq damn-truth
  "He's hardly a straight shooter.")

See `C-h f' for `lisp-indent-function' and
`common-lisp-indent-function'.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

>> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> 
>>>> Most likely written by some old dudes working in the late
>>>> 80's and early 90's. Have a good hunch that they were old
>>>> fortran programmers that did not entertain the idea of
>>>> moving to Fortran 90.
>>>
>>> Once again, please drop the attitude
>> 
>> Do it yourself Eli :)
>
> First, quote correctly (the first part above was
> goncholden). Second, Eli can't drop goncholden's attitude,
> only goncholden can. I decided to stop communicating with
> her/him exactly because of that [1] (I'm sincerely in awe of
> Eli's patience).

Eli, why are you suddenly referring to yourself in 3rd person?
You're spooking me out!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Drew Adams wrote:

>> How do I tweak the indentation of emacs-lisp-mode?
>> 
>> I could use
>> 
>> (setq damn-truth
>>   "He was such a straight shooter")
>> 
>> instead of
>> 
>> (setq damn-truth
>>       "He was such a straightshooter.")
>> 
>> by default?
>
> (put 'setq 'lisp-indent-function 'defun)
> (setq damn-truth
>   "He's hardly a straight shooter.")
>
> See `C-h f' for `lisp-indent-function' and
> `common-lisp-indent-function'.

Wow, thanks! Yes, works :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 11:50 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:15:59 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > Emacs doesn't impose any style. By "style" I meant how many columns
> > > should each construct be indented. In Emacs, you can set all the
> > > parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
> > > can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
> > > Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
> > > automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
> > > customizations.
> >
> > Let me rephrase again. Emacs imposes indentation rules by requiring said customisations.
>
>
> Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
> could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
> suit the indentation style. That's a win by any measure.

That the problem you are taking ages to understand.  "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.

> > The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.
>
>
> It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
> file you posted.

No, because there are thousands of files.  That was just an example to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single style.  Not true.

> Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
> the defaults, like this:
>
> C-x h
> C-M-\
>
> and then keep making changes without any customizations.

That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code changes.  Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a style on legacy code.  It should be able to go along with no style.

The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to a single formatting scheme.  Legacy code does not even subscribe to that.  They only had simple editors.  If I introduce tabs with
"C-q TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses return at the end of the line.

Emacs is acting like a dictator.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 11.06.2022 13:39, goncholden wrote:
> Is there a way to disable emacs indentation rules altogether?

Rebind "TAB" to 'self-insert-command' in that particular major mode.

Or to 'indent-relative'.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 9:00 AM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:


> On 11.06.2022 13:39, goncholden wrote:
>
> > Is there a way to disable emacs indentation rules altogether?
>
>
> Rebind "TAB" to 'self-insert-command' in that particular major mode.
>
> Or to 'indent-relative'.

I have tried that.  You get encouraged it might work.  Until you press return on the end of the line.  Then emacs deletes all the tabs.

Emacs should have a minor-mode or settings that only keep the highlighting for the specific major-mode, and allows the user
to format as one pleases.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 12.06.2022 00:17, goncholden wrote:
> I have tried that.  You get encouraged it might work.  Until you press return on the end of the line.  Then emacs deletes all the tabs.

Aaand you can disable 'electric-indent-mode' to get rid of this behavior.

> Emacs should have a minor-mode or settings that only keep the highlighting for the specific major-mode, and allows the user
> to format as one pleases.

The general expectation is that our users's projects adhere to some 
common rules WRT indentation, with only a few parameters varying between 
them (which can be customized). When that holds, Emacs's way is way more 
efficient in practice.

And when one works on a rare exception, they can tweak their config 
accordingly. A minor mode could be helpful, I suppose, but the 
customizations I suggested are fairly easy to do already.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 9:36 AM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:


> On 12.06.2022 00:17, goncholden wrote:
>
> > I have tried that. You get encouraged it might work. Until you press return on the end of the line. Then emacs deletes all the tabs.
>
>
> Aaand you can disable 'electric-indent-mode' to get rid of this behavior.
>
> > Emacs should have a minor-mode or settings that only keep the highlighting for the specific major-mode, and allows the user
> > to format as one pleases.
>
>
> The general expectation is that our users's projects adhere to some
> common rules WRT indentation, with only a few parameters varying between
> them (which can be customized). When that holds, Emacs's way is way more
> efficient in practice.

That expectation is wrong for legacy code, particularly in fortran.

> And when one works on a rare exception, they can tweak their config
> accordingly. A minor mode could be helpful, I suppose, but the
> customizations I suggested are fairly easy to do already.

They are easy to do but they are not enough.  Because at some deep level emacs expectation users's projects to adhere to a sytle.  That only works for single person works or multi-person works who actually adhere to a style.  In this files, the style they adhere to relate only to naming conventions and that code is uppercase.  And obviously, that usual column position rules.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 9:56 AM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 9:36 AM, Dmitry Gutov dgutov@yandex.ru wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12.06.2022 00:17, goncholden wrote:
> >
> > > I have tried that. You get encouraged it might work. Until you press return on the end of the line. Then emacs deletes all the tabs.
> >
> > Aaand you can disable 'electric-indent-mode' to get rid of this behavior.
> >
> > > Emacs should have a minor-mode or settings that only keep the highlighting for the specific major-mode, and allows the user
> > > to format as one pleases.
> >
> > The general expectation is that our users's projects adhere to some
> > common rules WRT indentation, with only a few parameters varying between
> > them (which can be customized). When that holds, Emacs's way is way more
> > efficient in practice.
>
>
> That expectation is wrong for legacy code, particularly in fortran.
>
> > And when one works on a rare exception, they can tweak their config
> > accordingly. A minor mode could be helpful, I suppose, but the
> > customizations I suggested are fairly easy to do already.
>
>
> They are easy to do but they are not enough. Because at some deep level emacs expectation users's projects to adhere to a sytle. That only works for single person works or multi-person works who actually adhere to a style. In this files, the style they adhere to relate only to naming conventions and that code is uppercase. And obviously, that usual column position rules.

The defeating part is that even if I introduce TABs with

(global-set-key (kbd "TAB") (kbd "C-q TAB"))

or

(local-set-key (kbd "TAB") 'self-insert-command)

and using

(setq tab-always-indent nil)

all tabs get forcefully removed once one hits return at end of line.  I could be that emacs introduces some indentation spaces on the next line but to then remove all tabs on the previous line is excessive.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 12.06.2022 03:07, goncholden wrote:
> all tabs get forcefully removed once one hits return at end of line

That also sounds like electric-indent-mode.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:


> On 12.06.2022 03:07, goncholden wrote:
>
> > all tabs get forcefully removed once one hits return at end of line
>
>
> That also sounds like electric-indent-mode.

Would you suggest to turn it off?  Is it possible.  How can that be done?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 12:35 PM, goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> wrote:


>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Dmitry Gutov dgutov@yandex.ru wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12.06.2022 03:07, goncholden wrote:
> >
> > > all tabs get forcefully removed once one hits return at end of line
> >
> > That also sounds like electric-indent-mode.
>

Have now done

(setq electric-indent-mode nil)

I realise now that electric indendation should be enabled carefully.  Found that it was electric-indent-mode that when you use it in a buffer, not only the new line is indented, but also the previous one, which means that its indentation was being forcefully changed if the current indentation is not the only possible one.

That was my big argument about how any modification was breaking the indentation of legacy code.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> That the problem you are taking ages to understand.
> "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.

Actually, Emacs doesn't require you to do anything.
Using Emacs is optional.  Emacs doesn't need you.
Whether you need or want Emacs is entirely up to
you.  It's free, and so are you.

Consenting grownups and all that.

> Emacs is acting like a dictator.

Sounds like you've already extinguished the bird in
your hand, or at least you're now menacing it with
alarming squeezes.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 2:24 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:


> > That the problem you are taking ages to understand.
> > "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.
>
>
> Actually, Emacs doesn't require you to do anything.
> Using Emacs is optional. Emacs doesn't need you.
> Whether you need or want Emacs is entirely up to
> you. It's free, and so are you.
>
> Consenting grownups and all that.
>
> > Emacs is acting like a dictator.
>
>
> Sounds like you've already extinguished the bird in
> your hand, or at least you're now menacing it with
> alarming squeezes.

No.  It is just people bashing for those who cast doubts
on the emacs worship experience.  You are all wrong on this.
And I am right.

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 03:16:29 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> You are all wrong on this.  And I am right.

You will never learn much with this attitude.  But good luck anyway
(you will need it!).

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 20:02:57 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
> > could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
> > suit the indentation style. That's a win by any measure.
> 
> That the problem you are taking ages to understand.  "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.

No, it isn't the problem.  It is the solution to many problems,
whereby people use many different coding styles in their programs.  It
is impossible to provide good indentation support for any arbitrary
style, so if you happen to need to work with non-standard style, you
need to tell Emacs about that style.

> > > The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.
> >
> >
> > It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
> > file you posted.
> 
> No, because there are thousands of files.

Are they using different styles?  If so, my suggestion is to reformat
them to the default style supported by Emacs out of the box, before
you start editing.

> > Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
> > the defaults, like this:
> >
> > C-x h
> > C-M-\
> >
> > and then keep making changes without any customizations.
> 
> That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code changes.

Detecting code changes is nowadays the job of a VCS.  A modern VCS can
easily show you changes other than whitespace changes.  Or you can
commit the reformatted but otherwise unchanged source first, and then
examine the changes relative to that.

> The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to a single formatting scheme.  Legacy code does not even subscribe to that.  They only had simple editors.  If I introduce tabs with
> "C-q TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses return at the end of the line.
> 
> Emacs is acting like a dictator.

If Emacs doesn't satisfy your needs, you are free to use another
editor, aren't you?

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 6:06 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 03:16:29 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > You are all wrong on this. And I am right.
>
>
> You will never learn much with this attitude. But good luck anyway
> (you will need it!).

Why don't you learn from others for a change.  Rather than keeping up with the usual pompous bullshit to save face on things that I have more experience working with on a daily basis !  May I remind you that I am not some intern you can frighten with your threats.

It is the Gnu Community who will ultimately suffer if you are incapable of showing how one can get past a stumbling block whilst one is trying to use it !

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to
> a single formatting scheme.  Legacy code does not even subscribe to
> that.  They only had simple editors.  If I introduce tabs with "C-q
> TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses
> return at the end of the line.
>
> Emacs is acting like a dictator.

So just turn of electric-indent-mode, right?  Because if you don't want
on-the-fly indentation, you shouldn't be using it?

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 06:40:12 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> Why don't you learn from others for a change.  Rather than keeping up with the usual pompous bullshit to save face on things that I have more experience working with on a daily basis !  May I remind you that I am not some intern you can frighten with your threats.

I guess you have no arguments left except these profanities.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 6:53 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to
> > a single formatting scheme. Legacy code does not even subscribe to
> > that. They only had simple editors. If I introduce tabs with "C-q
> > TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses
> > return at the end of the line.
> >
> > Emacs is acting like a dictator.
>
>
> So just turn of electric-indent-mode, right? Because if you don't want
> on-the-fly indentation, you shouldn't be using it?

Correct.  It is much better than the easy dodging of the problem that insists
on reformatting the whole codebase so as to adhere with some design spucification
of an editor.  Because the attitude of some of the current maintainers is that
if I do not like it, choose another editor so we can continue with our way of doing
things.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> So just turn of electric-indent-mode, right?  Because if you don't want
> on-the-fly indentation, you shouldn't be using it?

Or here's a better idea, if you don't want any of the features provided
by Fortran mode: use fundamental-mode instead.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> Correct.  It is much better than the easy dodging of the problem that
> insists on reformatting the whole codebase so as to adhere with some
> design spucification of an editor.  Because the attitude of some of
> the current maintainers is that if I do not like it, choose another
> editor so we can continue with our way of doing things.

Nowhere did you explain that your problem was with electric
indentation.  Your question was about changing the value of
indent-tabs-mode from a major mode hook.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 6:40 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 20:02:57 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
> > > could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
> > > suit the indentation style. That's a win by any measure.

Unless you don't want help.  You want to do it yourself.
Basically, I want all of the support disabled and take complete control except of the language highlighting.

> > That the problem you are taking ages to understand. "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.
>
>
> No, it isn't the problem. It is the solution to many problems,
> whereby people use many different coding styles in their programs. It
> is impossible to provide good indentation support for any arbitrary
> style, so if you happen to need to work with non-standard style, you
> need to tell Emacs about that style.

But my point is different.  I want to instruct emacs not to provide me with good indentation support for the current buffer, as I know better what to do.  This is the argument I am putting forward.

> > > > The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.
> > >
> > > It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
> > > file you posted.
> >
> > No, because there are thousands of files.
>
>
> Are they using different styles? If so, my suggestion is to reformat
> them to the default style supported by Emacs out of the box, before
> you start editing.

Yes.  Same language with many different styles and all syntactically and operationally correct.  So fixing for
some specific style has no practical value whatsoever.

> > > Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
> > > the defaults, like this:
> > >
> > > C-x h
> > > C-M-\
> > >
> > > and then keep making changes without any customizations.
> >
> > That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code changes.
>
>
> Detecting code changes is nowadays the job of a VCS. A modern VCS can
> easily show you changes other than whitespace changes. Or you can
> commit the reformatted but otherwise unchanged source first, and then
> examine the changes relative to that.
>
> > The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to a single formatting scheme. Legacy code does not even subscribe to that. They only had simple editors. If I introduce tabs with
> > "C-q TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses return at the end of the line.
> >
> > Emacs is acting like a dictator.
>
>
> If Emacs doesn't satisfy your needs, you are free to use another
> editor, aren't you?

It is not about satisfying my needs.  There exist regulations in the world and I cannot modify an entire codebase because some want to use an editor over another.  Currently I cannot successfully present my case for the use of emacs with the other service branches.  Capish, my dear Eli?

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 15:13:05 +0800
> 
> Or here's a better idea, if you don't want any of the features provided
> by Fortran mode: use fundamental-mode instead.

That still has electric-indent-mode turned on by default, though.

Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
(re)indentation.  Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 7:02 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 06:40:12 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > Why don't you learn from others for a change. Rather than keeping up with the usual pompous bullshit to save face on things that I have more experience working with on a daily basis ! May I remind you that I am not some intern you can frighten with your threats.
>
>
> I guess you have no arguments left except these profanities.

Correct.  And you have no arguments left except to tell me to find another editor.  But if I can convince on the use of emacs, changes to the code style could be achieved later on.  But changing for the sake of using emacs will certainly get blocked.

It looks like that electric-indent-mode was the rattle snake that bit me.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 7:18 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > Correct. It is much better than the easy dodging of the problem that
> > insists on reformatting the whole codebase so as to adhere with some
> > design spucification of an editor. Because the attitude of some of
> > the current maintainers is that if I do not like it, choose another
> > editor so we can continue with our way of doing things.
>
>
> Nowhere did you explain that your problem was with electric
> indentation. Your question was about changing the value of
> indent-tabs-mode from a major mode hook.

I only figured it out a few hours ago what could be happening.  There are many things going on that are enabled by default.

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> And you have no arguments left except to tell me to find another
> editor.

That's not an argument, that's advice.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 7:29 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > From: Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 15:13:05 +0800
> >
> > Or here's a better idea, if you don't want any of the features provided
> > by Fortran mode: use fundamental-mode instead.
>
>
> That still has electric-indent-mode turned on by default, though.
>
> Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
> (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
> disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?

You never seem to get my point.  Whatever solution I am given fails because what produces the problem is turned on by default.

Please stop insisting about it.  Is what annoys me the most.  Because my focus is to get the job done and do what is needed.  I should be able to use it as I wish ok.  But it seems you are turning such basic principle upside down.

Re: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 8:06 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > And you have no arguments left except to tell me to find another
> > editor.
>
>
> That's not an argument, that's advice.

An advice because someone does not want me to disable a feature because to them it does not make sense?  I asked for help to solve a particular problem, and if that means disabling a feature, I should be told to do that.  Rather than barraging me with personal philosophies.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 08:29:56 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> > Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
> > (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
> > disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?
> 
> You never seem to get my point.  Whatever solution I am given fails because what produces the problem is turned on by default.
> 
> Please stop insisting about it.  Is what annoys me the most.  Because my focus is to get the job done and do what is needed.  I should be able to use it as I wish ok.  But it seems you are turning such basic principle upside down.

For some reason, you assume that what I wrote above was addressed to
you.  It wasn't.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> You never seem to get my point.  Whatever solution I am given fails
> because what produces the problem is turned on by default.

If you think electric-indent-mode should be turned off by default just
because it causes problems for you, then you're wrong.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 8:45 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > You never seem to get my point. Whatever solution I am given fails
> > because what produces the problem is turned on by default.
>
>
> If you think electric-indent-mode should be turned off by default just
> because it causes problems for you, then you're wrong.

No.  I asked what to do to avoid emacs messing up the previous line because of the legacy code I am working on.  Because it did not make sense for some people, the answer I got was to find another editor.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Sunday, June 12th, 2022 at 8:36 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 08:29:56 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > > Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
> > > (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
> > > disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?
> >
> > You never seem to get my point. Whatever solution I am given fails because what produces the problem is turned on by default.
> >
> > Please stop insisting about it. Is what annoys me the most. Because my focus is to get the job done and do what is needed. I should be able to use it as I wish ok. But it seems you are turning such basic principle upside down.
>
>
> For some reason, you assume that what I wrote above was addressed to
> you. It wasn't.

You were talking to Po.  Nevertheless, I already had given you a reason for not
wanting automatic re-indentation.  You talk nonsense sometimes.  There are reasons,
although it is not really an everyday thing.  Once people are in emacs doing some work,
it is usual to use emacs to do some other thing as well.  And to change some things for
a buffer or two only.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Jean Louis]

* goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> [2022-06-11 23:04]:
> No, because there are thousands of files.  That was just an example
> to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain
> formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single
> style.  Not true.

I understand that issue.

> That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code
> changes.  Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a
> style on legacy code.  It should be able to go along with no style.

How I understand it, you speak of turning off indentation.

Here are some resources for settings:

EmacsWiki: Turn All Indenting Off
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TurnAllIndentingOff

clipboard - Completely disable all auto-indentation - Emacs Stack Exchange
https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/14297/completely-disable-all-auto-indentation

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Netiquette is way to go

[Jean Louis]

* goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> [2022-06-12 20:50]:
> Correct.  It is much better than the easy dodging of the problem
> that insists on reformatting the whole codebase so as to adhere with
> some design spucification of an editor.  Because the attitude of
> some of the current maintainers is that if I do not like it, choose
> another editor so we can continue with our way of doing things.

I have fully understood your problem even before reading the
subsequent discussion.

On this planet we human have specific rules of behavior, manner or
etiquette. There is something called netiquette as well, for network
related communication. 

On GNU mailing lists we strive, but not force, to adhere to the below
guidelines.

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

For me, I totally understand your style of talking and did not find
anything offensive. This may be because I have spent time in parts of
world with similar communication style. There are parts of world where
heavy profanities are used to greet familiar people and it means
nothing. 

I can fully understand Drew and Eli, as your style of talking is
simply not proper for everybody and everywhere.

You are in global communication exchange. Mailing list spans any
countries on the planet. We have different ways of expressing
ourselves and we have to find common ways. GNU Kind Communication
Guideline is a way to reach that goal.

It is good reading books about international business manners, that
will give you idea how to get communication across in such way that it
does not get rejected due to your local style of expressions.

Issue is to find global common and acceptable style of
communication. Maybe following references may help further:

Etiquette in technology - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_technology

10 netiquette rules to maintain a good online reputation | NortonLifeLock
https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-kids-safety-what-is-netiquette.html

10 Netiquette Rules to Know and Follow
https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-rules-of-netiquette-22285

What is Netiquette? 20 rules Internet Etiquette Rules
https://me-en.kaspersky.com/resource-center/preemptive-safety/what-is-netiquette

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2022-06-12 20:46]:
> > From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 15:13:05 +0800
> > 
> > Or here's a better idea, if you don't want any of the features provided
> > by Fortran mode: use fundamental-mode instead.
> 
> That still has electric-indent-mode turned on by default, though.
> 
> Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
> (re)indentation.  Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
> disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?

Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation.

I was too much used on some automatically offered features in Emacs,
and simply submit to them and use what Emacs offers. 

Though I can understand that different files not made with Emacs could
have different intendation and myself I would not like changing those
or adapting those automatically.

For that reason I sometimes use this function to edit buffer with
external editor.

(defun rcd-edit-with-external-editor (&optional text)
  "Editing with external editor as defined in `rcd-external-editor'.

It will either edit the optional TEXT as string
argument. Otherwise it will edit the current buffer and replace
it with the result."
  (interactive)
  (let* ((buffer-or-text (if text nil t))
	 (text (if buffer-or-text (buffer-substring-no-properties (point-min) (point-max)) text))
	 (point (point))
	 ;; (mode major-mode)
	 (file (concat (or (getenv "TMPDIR") "/tmp/") "temp-file")))
    (string-to-file-force text file)
    (call-process rcd-external-editor nil nil nil file)
    (if buffer-or-text 
	(progn
	  (erase-buffer)
	  (insert-file-contents file)
	  (goto-char point))
      (file-to-string file))))

(defcustom rcd-external-editor "notepadqq"
  "The external editor as an option for some functions"
  :group 'rcd
  :type 'string)


Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 5:10 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com [2022-06-11 23:04]:
>
> > No, because there are thousands of files. That was just an example
> > to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain
> > formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single
> > style. Not true.

> I understand that issue.

Hallelujah

> > That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code
> > changes. Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a
> > style on legacy code. It should be able to go along with no style.
>

> How I understand it, you speak of turning off indentation.

You win a medal, the size of a plate.

> Here are some resources for settings:
>
> EmacsWiki: Turn All Indenting Off
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TurnAllIndentingOff
>
> clipboard - Completely disable all auto-indentation - Emacs Stack Exchange
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/14297/completely-disable-all-auto-indentation
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 5:10 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com [2022-06-11 23:04]:
>
> > No, because there are thousands of files. That was just an example
> > to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain
> > formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single
> > style. Not true.
>
>
> I understand that issue.
>
> > That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code
> > changes. Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a
> > style on legacy code. It should be able to go along with no style.
>
>
> How I understand it, you speak of turning off indentation.

There is a terrible design flaw in emacs recommending not to turn off indentation.  The wiki insists to really not do it, because one would have to turn off a lot of "electric-foo" commands (such as automatic newlines and indentation after {, ;, etc.

Emacs failed to keep track of the uncoordinated electric functionality introduced.  Ending up with no sane way of disabling them.  The insistence is then an admittance of a design flaw making it difficult for users to revert them back without missing anything.

Disabling automatic indentation completely must be a single command operation, with Emacs tracking what electric indentation functionality is enabled automatically, and disable them without putting such burdens on the user.  Emacs has ended up with an artificial intelligence machine that takes control away from the human being, if our intelligence cannot figure out a quick and direct way to turn off its plug.


> Here are some resources for settings:
>
> EmacsWiki: Turn All Indenting Off
> https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TurnAllIndentingOff
>
> clipboard - Completely disable all auto-indentation - Emacs Stack Exchange
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/14297/completely-disable-all-auto-indentation
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Jean Louis]

* goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> [2022-06-12 23:41]:
> Disabling automatic indentation completely must be a single command
> operation, with Emacs tracking what electric indentation
> functionality is enabled automatically, and disable them without
> putting such burdens on the user.  Emacs has ended up with an
> artificial intelligence machine that takes control away from the
> human being, if our intelligence cannot figure out a quick and
> direct way to turn off its plug.

I guess it is rather helpful to many users. But that is just a
guess. For sure I personally prefer many automatic indentations, and
that is one of main reasons why I prefer Emacs as editor.
  
  For example, I like that I simply press RET and get in the next line
  of this paragraph.  It helps me many times when formatting list
  items. The way I like it.

There are many options in Emacs, and to find the one with indentation
is really difficult. I do not think that you would easily find it out
without asking on mailing list.

That option to turn it off exists, that means you are still in charge.

And after using Emacs a lot, when I get into other editor, I feel the
same, those editors are taking control over my habits or lack of
habits. All those are subjective perceptions, in other words,
illusions. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 6:13 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com [2022-06-12 20:50]:
>
> > Correct. It is much better than the easy dodging of the problem
> > that insists on reformatting the whole codebase so as to adhere with
> > some design spucification of an editor. Because the attitude of
> > some of the current maintainers is that if I do not like it, choose
> > another editor so we can continue with our way of doing things.
>
>
> I have fully understood your problem even before reading the
> subsequent discussion.
>
> On this planet we human have specific rules of behavior, manner or
> etiquette. There is something called netiquette as well, for network
> related communication.
>
> On GNU mailing lists we strive, but not force, to adhere to the below
> guidelines.
>
> GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html
>
> For me, I totally understand your style of talking and did not find
> anything offensive. This may be because I have spent time in parts of
> world with similar communication style. There are parts of world where
> heavy profanities are used to greet familiar people and it means
> nothing.

Come on now.  I worked in England, the United States, and France.  Do you really think they conquered the world by being nice?  Perhaps when inside their own country.  Everywhere else, it doubt that very much.

> I can fully understand Drew and Eli, as your style of talking is
> simply not proper for everybody and everywhere.

I will tell you about netiquette.  There has been a tendency for prescriptive and rigid advice based on personal ideologies, rather than listening about the struggles of users in whatever difficulties they are encountering.  When one is telling time and time again about an unsolved problem, why do maintainers continue to forcefully insist that it makes no sense to disable automatic indentation or automatic re-indentation?  One time these things did not exist and people managed their projects quite well even then.  But now people have got so used to them that they have become totally dependent on them.  Their world view has changed so drastically that if someone else wants to do it differently, it must surely be nonsense.

How can you speak of netiquette when the real problems are not raised on the agenda, falling into a spiral of silence.  To put it naively as a pessimist conclusion of what will happen in spite of protests here and there in that we will probably continue to slide toward some kind of apocalypse awaiting large catastrophes to awaken us.  I don't accept any optimism when somebody tries to convince me that in spite of all the problems there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  My instant reply is yes and it's probably another train coming towards us.

> You are in global communication exchange. Mailing list spans any
> countries on the planet. We have different ways of expressing
> ourselves and we have to find common ways. GNU Kind Communication
> Guideline is a way to reach that goal.
>
> It is good reading books about international business manners, that
> will give you idea how to get communication across in such way that it
> does not get rejected due to your local style of expressions.

> Issue is to find global common and acceptable style of
> communication. Maybe following references may help further:

Please understand this, you will not ever find a global common and acceptable style of communication.   But learn to accept all forms of styles of communication.  This is why I have continued the discussion that got us to an understanding of the automatic processes within emacs that have to be disabled so I can do what is needed.

Go ask many people and tribes across the world (e.g. the Massai ) if they want to move to america, the uk, or russia.  They would say, definitely not, never.  In the international theatre, there are no rules to say that we must play the game with your rules.

Kind Regards


> Etiquette in technology - Wikipedia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_technology
>
> 10 netiquette rules to maintain a good online reputation | NortonLifeLock
> https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-kids-safety-what-is-netiquette.html
>
> 10 Netiquette Rules to Know and Follow
> https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-rules-of-netiquette-22285
>
> What is Netiquette? 20 rules Internet Etiquette Rules
> https://me-en.kaspersky.com/resource-center/preemptive-safety/what-is-netiquette
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 6:21 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org [2022-06-12 20:46]:
>
> > > From: Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com
> > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 15:13:05 +0800
> > >
> > > Or here's a better idea, if you don't want any of the features provided
> > > by Fortran mode: use fundamental-mode instead.
> >
> > That still has electric-indent-mode turned on by default, though.
> >
> > Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want automatic
> > (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor if all you want is to
> > disable each and every feature which makes its powerful?
>
>
> Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation.
>
> I was too much used on some automatically offered features in Emacs,
> and simply submit to them and use what Emacs offers.
>
> Though I can understand that different files not made with Emacs could
> have different intendation and myself I would not like changing those
> or adapting those automatically.
>
> For that reason I sometimes use this function to edit buffer with
> external editor.
>
> (defun rcd-edit-with-external-editor (&optional text)
> "Editing with external editor as defined in `rcd-external-editor'.
>
> It will either edit the optional TEXT as string
> argument. Otherwise it will edit the current buffer and replace
> it with the result."
> (interactive)
> (let* ((buffer-or-text (if text nil t))
> (text (if buffer-or-text (buffer-substring-no-properties (point-min) (point-max)) text))
> (point (point))
> ;; (mode major-mode)
> (file (concat (or (getenv "TMPDIR") "/tmp/") "temp-file")))
> (string-to-file-force text file)
> (call-process rcd-external-editor nil nil nil file)
> (if buffer-or-text
> (progn
> (erase-buffer)
> (insert-file-contents file)
> (goto-char point))
> (file-to-string file))))
>
> (defcustom rcd-external-editor "notepadqq"
> "The external editor as an option for some functions"
> :group 'rcd
> :type 'string)

Thank you Jean Louis.  You are the most sensible person I have encountered here.  Hat off.

> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want
>> automatic (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor
>> if all you want is to disable each and every feature which
>> makes its powerful?
>
> Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation.

Indentation should always be used and the more it can be
automated the better.

> Though I can understand that different files not made with
> Emacs could have different intendation and myself I would
> not like changing those or adapting those automatically.

Why not?

But actually it doesn't happen unless you edit those sections
or explicitly re-indent the whole buffer ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Jean Louis]

* goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> [2022-06-13 02:25]:
> Come on now.  I worked in England, the United States, and France.
> Do you really think they conquered the world by being nice?  Perhaps
> when inside their own country.  Everywhere else, it doubt that very
> much.

One thing I know for sure, Emacs is used all over the world and it is
product of the GNU project, where people strive to be nice. 

> Go ask many people and tribes across the world (e.g. the Massai ) if
> they want to move to america, the uk, or russia.  They would say,
> definitely not, never.  In the international theatre, there are no
> rules to say that we must play the game with your rules.

I got it.

Just that I am really wrong person to ask about Maasai, as I often
work with Maasai tribe and they come to our offices in the town close
to Moshi and Kilimanjaro. They like walking as people and they would
go anywhere they could possibly go, even by foot. Parents engrave
specific scars on their children with knife because parents move
somewhere else and know that maybe in future they may find their
children again and will recognize them by scars they did on them.

One thing is sure, they think they are rejecting Western civilization
by wearing those impostor Scottish tartans and by holding huge smart
phones in their bags.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2022-06-13 06:04]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> >> Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want
> >> automatic (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor
> >> if all you want is to disable each and every feature which
> >> makes its powerful?
> >
> > Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation.
> 
> Indentation should always be used and the more it can be
> automated the better.

Programmers' indentation is akin to holy war.

Read the quote:

,----
| "Many early programmers used tab characters to indent, for ease of
| typing and to save on source file size"
`----

from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentation_style#Tabs,_spaces,_and_size_of_indentations

I can think that sources from past may have its cultural
significance. Reformatting such sources may rather be destructive for
the full understanding of the programming roots.

Other fact is that various editors simply do not indent same way the
same language or markup, as there are too many different subjective
assumptions and attempts to impose these or those rules. 

Frustration as result is understandable.

I cannot find anything about indentation in Emacs GUI menu. But I can
find indentation settings in editor such as Leo (most similar to
Emacs), Mousepad, or Notepadqq or Gvim. In Emacs "Options Menu" it
appears there is more importance if cursor is to blink or not and if
tool bar, tab bar and menu bar are shown or not shown, while many
other useful user options are not there.

And Emacs users will stick to their habits and will say, well, if you
wish to customize anything use setq or customize options. However, it
may reject users or create esoteric impressions, that Emacs is not for
everybody, but rather for advanced users.

As a quick test, when I imagine I am Notepadqq user and now coming to
Emacs, I was used as Notepadqq user to easily find option under Edit
-> Indentation -> where I could choose Smart Indentation, Custom or
Default Settings. I do not say it is better than what... (Emacs), I
just give it as example. Then I open up Emacs and then I cannot find
anything about indentation. If I go to top level group and write
"indent" I get bunch of words I am not used to, like "Latex Indent
Comment Start Regexp" and "Bibtex Contline Indentation" and so on,
there is no way I can understand easily on the 74th line what is
"Electric Indent Mode" just by looking into customization option. In
fact if I click on "More" which implies the meaning to be "more
information", I am faced with this happy greeting:

,----
| "   See the ‘electric-indent-mode’ command
|    for a description of this minor mode.
|    Setting this variable directly does not take effect;
|    either customize it (see the info node ‘Easy Customization’)
|    or call the function ‘electric-indent-mode’.
| "
`----

So, tell me, how am I supposed as user to get some indentation
settings without going through bushes of torns until I come to full
understanding what is going on?

By the way, when I click "More" the function `electric-indent-mode' on
that place is not linked to anything, I cannot just click on it to
understand it, and what follows is that me as a user of Notepadqq,
Gvim, or Mousepad editor on GNU/Linux, I simply cannot find a common
option, I cannot find it, even though I used customization search
feature, I wrote "indent" and I got bunch of nonsense, no real
guidance, I cannot possibly do it, neither I can understand "how to
see `electric-indent-mode' command for a description of this minor
mode".

The above small analysis is there to demonstrate differences to
editors and difficulties.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 10:42 AM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com [2022-06-12 23:41]:
>
> > Disabling automatic indentation completely must be a single command
> > operation, with Emacs tracking what electric indentation
> > functionality is enabled automatically, and disable them without
> > putting such burdens on the user. Emacs has ended up with an
> > artificial intelligence machine that takes control away from the
> > human being, if our intelligence cannot figure out a quick and
> > direct way to turn off its plug.
>
>
> I guess it is rather helpful to many users. But that is just a
> guess. For sure I personally prefer many automatic indentations, and
> that is one of main reasons why I prefer Emacs as editor.
>
> For example, I like that I simply press RET and get in the next line
> of this paragraph. It helps me many times when formatting list
> items. The way I like it.

I like it too but then I started playing with some legacy fortran code, which necessitated different rules.

> There are many options in Emacs, and to find the one with indentation
> is really difficult. I do not think that you would easily find it out
> without asking on mailing list.

It took me about a week to figure out that the tab on the previous line that was being modified when pressing return was due to electric-indent.

> That option to turn it off exists, that means you are still in charge.

Right.  Po Lu has been helping me.

> And after using Emacs a lot, when I get into other editor, I feel the
> same, those editors are taking control over my habits or lack of
> habits. All those are subjective perceptions, in other words,
> illusions.



> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> Disabling automatic indentation completely must be a single
>> command operation, with Emacs tracking what electric
>> indentation functionality is enabled automatically, and
>> disable them without putting such burdens on the user.
>> Emacs has ended up with an artificial intelligence machine
>> that takes control away from the human being, if our
>> intelligence cannot figure out a quick and direct way to
>> turn off its plug.
>
> I guess it is rather helpful to many users. But that is just
> a guess. For sure I personally prefer many automatic
> indentations, and that is one of main reasons why I prefer
> Emacs as editor.
>
>   For example, I like that I simply press RET and get in the
>   next line of this paragraph. It helps me many times when
>   formatting list items. The way I like it.
>
> There are many options in Emacs, and to find the one with
> indentation is really difficult. I do not think that you
> would easily find it out without asking on mailing list.
>
> That option to turn it off exists, that means you are still
> in charge.
>
> And after using Emacs a lot, when I get into other editor,
> I feel the same, those editors are taking control over my
> habits or lack of habits. All those are subjective
> perceptions, in other words, illusions.

This thread, difficult to understand to begin with, has now
turned completely incomprehensible. Why don't we ask the river
where its water runs dry?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I can think that sources from past may have its cultural
> significance. Reformatting such sources may rather be
> destructive for the full understanding of the
> programming roots.
>
> Other fact is that various editors simply do not indent same
> way the same language or markup, as there are too many
> different subjective assumptions and attempts to impose
> these or those rules.
>
> Frustration as result is understandable.
>
> I cannot find anything about indentation in Emacs GUI menu.
> But I can find indentation settings in editor such as Leo
> (most similar to Emacs), Mousepad, or Notepadqq or Gvim.
> In Emacs "Options Menu" it appears there is more importance
> if cursor is to blink or not and if tool bar, tab bar and
> menu bar are shown or not shown, while many other useful
> user options are not there.
>
> And Emacs users will stick to their habits and will say,
> well, if you wish to customize anything use setq or
> customize options. However, it may reject users or create
> esoteric impressions, that Emacs is not for everybody, but
> rather for advanced users.
>
> As a quick test, when I imagine I am Notepadqq user and now
> coming to Emacs, I was used as Notepadqq user to easily find
> option under Edit -> Indentation -> where I could choose
> Smart Indentation, Custom or Default Settings. I do not say
> it is better than what... (Emacs), I just give it as
> example. Then I open up Emacs and then I cannot find
> anything about indentation. If I go to top level group and
> write "indent" I get bunch of words I am not used to, like
> "Latex Indent Comment Start Regexp" and "Bibtex Contline
> Indentation" and so on, there is no way I can understand
> easily on the 74th line what is "Electric Indent Mode" just
> by looking into customization option. In fact if I click on
> "More" which implies the meaning to be "more information",
> I am faced with this happy greeting:
>
>   See the ‘electric-indent-mode’ command for a description
>   of this minor mode. Setting this variable directly does
>   not take effect; either customize it (see the info node
>   ‘Easy Customization’) or call the function
>   ‘electric-indent-mode’.
>
> So, tell me, how am I supposed as user to get some
> indentation settings without going through bushes of torns
> until I come to full understanding what is going on?

How will an unenlightened person reach a state
of enlightenment?

I have to give it to you here, Jean, I don't know!

> By the way, when I click "More" the function
> `electric-indent-mode' on that place is not linked to
> anything, I cannot just click on it to understand it, and
> what follows is that me as a user of Notepadqq, Gvim, or
> Mousepad editor on GNU/Linux, I simply cannot find a common
> option, I cannot find it, even though I used customization
> search feature, I wrote "indent" and I got bunch of
> nonsense, no real guidance, I cannot possibly do it, neither
> I can understand "how to see `electric-indent-mode' command
> for a description of this minor mode".
>
> The above small analysis is there to demonstrate differences
> to editors and difficulties.

If only you could be passionate about it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 4:53 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com [2022-06-13 02:25]:
>
> > Come on now. I worked in England, the United States, and France.
> > Do you really think they conquered the world by being nice? Perhaps
> > when inside their own country. Everywhere else, it doubt that very
> > much.
>
>
> One thing I know for sure, Emacs is used all over the world and it is
> product of the GNU project, where people strive to be nice.



> > Go ask many people and tribes across the world (e.g. the Massai ) if
> > they want to move to america, the uk, or russia. They would say,
> > definitely not, never. In the international theatre, there are no
> > rules to say that we must play the game with your rules.
>
>
> I got it.
>
> Just that I am really wrong person to ask about Maasai, as I often
> work with Maasai tribe and they come to our offices in the town close
> to Moshi and Kilimanjaro. They like walking as people and they would
> go anywhere they could possibly go, even by foot. Parents engrave
> specific scars on their children with knife because parents move
> somewhere else and know that maybe in future they may find their
> children again and will recognize them by scars they did on them.
>
> One thing is sure, they think they are rejecting Western civilization
> by wearing those impostor Scottish tartans and by holding huge smart
> phones in their bags.

Add the motorcycle to that ;)

> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> One thing I know for sure, Emacs is used all over the world
> and it is product of the GNU project, where people strive to
> be nice.

Regardless of whatever, Emacs is actually more than that, it's
the de facto flagship of the GNU project.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 5:39 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Emanuel Berg incal@dataswamp.org [2022-06-13 06:04]:
>
> > Jean Louis wrote:
> >
> > > > Using Emacs makes no sense at all if one doesn't want
> > > > automatic (re)indentation. Why use such a powerful editor
> > > > if all you want is to disable each and every feature which
> > > > makes its powerful?
> > >
> > > Maybe manual shall have a section about disabling indentation.
> >
> > Indentation should always be used and the more it can be
> > automated the better.
>
>
> Programmers' indentation is akin to holy war.
>
> Read the quote:
>
> ,----
> | "Many early programmers used tab characters to indent, for ease of
> | typing and to save on source file size"
> `----

That's what they did

> from:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentation_style#Tabs,_spaces,_and_size_of_indentations
>
> I can think that sources from past may have its cultural
> significance. Reformatting such sources may rather be destructive for
> the full understanding of the programming roots.

Agreed

> Other fact is that various editors simply do not indent same way the
> same language or markup, as there are too many different subjective
> assumptions and attempts to impose these or those rules.
>
> Frustration as result is understandable.
>
> I cannot find anything about indentation in Emacs GUI menu. But I can
> find indentation settings in editor such as Leo (most similar to
> Emacs), Mousepad, or Notepadqq or Gvim. In Emacs "Options Menu" it
> appears there is more importance if cursor is to blink or not and if
> tool bar, tab bar and menu bar are shown or not shown, while many
> other useful user options are not there.
>
> And Emacs users will stick to their habits and will say, well, if you
> wish to customize anything use setq or customize options. However, it
> may reject users or create esoteric impressions, that Emacs is not for
> everybody, but rather for advanced users.

For my case it was not about the advanced user thing.  It was about doing what was needed.  I never cared how advanced and powerful emacs re-formatting was.

> As a quick test, when I imagine I am Notepadqq user and now coming to
> Emacs, I was used as Notepadqq user to easily find option under Edit
> -> Indentation -> where I could choose Smart Indentation, Custom or
>
> Default Settings. I do not say it is better than what... (Emacs), I
> just give it as example. Then I open up Emacs and then I cannot find
> anything about indentation. If I go to top level group and write
> "indent" I get bunch of words I am not used to, like "Latex Indent
> Comment Start Regexp" and "Bibtex Contline Indentation" and so on,
> there is no way I can understand easily on the 74th line what is
> "Electric Indent Mode" just by looking into customization option. In
> fact if I click on "More" which implies the meaning to be "more
> information", I am faced with this happy greeting:
>
> ,----
> | " See the ‘electric-indent-mode’ command
> | for a description of this minor mode.
> | Setting this variable directly does not take effect;
> | either customize it (see the info node ‘Easy Customization’)
> | or call the function ‘electric-indent-mode’.
> | "
> `---- So, tell me, how am I supposed as user to get some indentation settings without going through bushes of torns until I come to full understanding what is going on? By the way, when I click "More" the function` electric-indent-mode' on
> that place is not linked to anything, I cannot just click on it to
> understand it, and what follows is that me as a user of Notepadqq,
> Gvim, or Mousepad editor on GNU/Linux, I simply cannot find a common
> option, I cannot find it, even though I used customization search
> feature, I wrote "indent" and I got bunch of nonsense, no real
> guidance, I cannot possibly do it, neither I can understand "how to
> see `electric-indent-mode' command for a description of this minor
> mode".

We can go get drunk with the Massai after your ability to see things as they are.


> The above small analysis is there to demonstrate differences to
> editors and difficulties.
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> Come on now.  I worked in England, the United States, and France.  Do
> you really think they conquered the world by being nice?  Perhaps when
> inside their own country.  Everywhere else, it doubt that very much.

None of us on this list (hopefully) aim to conquer the world.

> I will tell you about netiquette.  There has been a tendency for
> prescriptive and rigid advice based on personal ideologies, rather
> than listening about the struggles of users in whatever difficulties
> they are encountering.  When one is telling time and time again about
> an unsolved problem, why do maintainers continue to forcefully insist
> that it makes no sense to disable automatic indentation or automatic
> re-indentation?  One time these things did not exist and people
> managed their projects quite well even then.  But now people have got
> so used to them that they have become totally dependent on them.
> Their world view has changed so drastically that if someone else wants
> to do it differently, it must surely be nonsense.

Because you did not ask about automatic indentation.  From the point of
view of everyone except you, you were asking how to adapt the Emacs
Fortran indentation rules to your (legacy) code, and not how to disable
automatic indentation.

Secondly, I cannot understand why changing the indentation around the
location of edits is a problem at all, even with code written on
"legacy" machines.  Many years ago I worked on ALGOL 68 written in
Russian in the 1970s and 1980s, and indentation did not prove to be a
problem at all.

> How can you speak of netiquette when the real problems are not raised
> on the agenda, falling into a spiral of silence.  To put it naively as
> a pessimist conclusion of what will happen in spite of protests here
> and there in that we will probably continue to slide toward some kind
> of apocalypse awaiting large catastrophes to awaken us.  I don't
> accept any optimism when somebody tries to convince me that in spite
> of all the problems there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  My
> instant reply is yes and it's probably another train coming towards
> us.

[...]

> Please understand this, you will not ever find a global common and
> acceptable style of communication.  But learn to accept all forms of
> styles of communication.  This is why I have continued the discussion
> that got us to an understanding of the automatic processes within
> emacs that have to be disabled so I can do what is needed.

I don't think we try to find a "global common and acceptable style of
communication"; people are simply asked to be nice and to behave with
the amount of courtesy generally expected on the internet, which happens
to be very similar to what is expected in western Europe.

> Go ask many people and tribes across the world (e.g. the Massai ) if
> they want to move to america, the uk, or russia.  They would say,
> definitely not, never.  In the international theatre, there are no
> rules to say that we must play the game with your rules.

The internet is not run by the Massai.

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Emanuel Berg]

Po Lu wrote:

>> Go ask many people and tribes across the world (e.g.
>> the Massai ) if they want to move to america, the uk, or
>> russia. They would say, definitely not, never. In the
>> international theatre, there are no rules to say that we
>> must play the game with your rules.
>
> The internet is not run by the Massai.

Is there even a country today that is a powerhouse in the IT
world which, before the internet age, wasn't a powerhouse in
the old military-industrial world order?

To me it looks like the world has changed more than the
world order ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> [2022-06-13 10:18]:
> Because you did not ask about automatic indentation.  From the point of
> view of everyone except you, you were asking how to adapt the Emacs
> Fortran indentation rules to your (legacy) code, and not how to disable
> automatic indentation.

How I see it: user did not express himself about "indentation" but
tried in his own words to explain what is happening and what is
desired.

We cannot expect of users new to Emacs to know what is
electric-indent-mode as that is too high expectation. I gave example
of indentation mentioned in other editors, Emacs does not offer
a menu item where indentation can be set.

We cannot tell to users "why you did not ask about
electric-indent-mode" as that means we have too high expectations.

We cannot even expect users to read the manual first before asking on
the mailing list for help. As by reading manual one would find out
that indentation is automatic.

I use Emacs long time, and I did not know that indentation is
automatic until I read the manual yesterday to find out about it. I
was under impression that I have set the indentation in my init.el and
forgot about it.

We can't have too high expectations on this mailing list. This is not
for experienced users only, not for developers, it is for "Help".

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 7:43 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:


> * Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com [2022-06-13 10:18]:
>
> > Because you did not ask about automatic indentation. From the point of
> > view of everyone except you, you were asking how to adapt the Emacs
> > Fortran indentation rules to your (legacy) code, and not how to disable
> > automatic indentation.

No, was not asking how to adapt indentation rules to legacy code.
I asked how to stop the removal of tabs from previous line after hitting return.  The previous line was legacy code I did not want to touch.  Had no idea about electric-indent.  The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not make sense disabling automatic indentation.
Even though mentioning electric-indent-mode would have solved my problem so that I can continue with what I need to do.

Refraining from telling me because according to emacs aficionados I am an idiot to turn indentation tools off, and that they know better is preposterous.  Then wonder how it happens that others begin to use linguistic profanities upon the community's sacred gurus.  Basically it is because I am now an old fart and have encountered enough bullshit that I can became equally mad with resorting to alcoholism or taking drugs, if I had been a young boy.

> How I see it: user did not express himself about "indentation" but
> tried in his own words to explain what is happening and what is
> desired.
>
> We cannot expect of users new to Emacs to know what is
> electric-indent-mode as that is too high expectation. I gave example
> of indentation mentioned in other editors, Emacs does not offer
> a menu item where indentation can be set.
>
> We cannot tell to users "why you did not ask about
> electric-indent-mode" as that means we have too high expectations.
>
> We cannot even expect users to read the manual first before asking on
> the mailing list for help. As by reading manual one would find out
> that indentation is automatic.
>
> I use Emacs long time, and I did not know that indentation is
> automatic until I read the manual yesterday to find out about it. I
> was under impression that I have set the indentation in my init.el and
> forgot about it.
>
> We can't have too high expectations on this mailing list. This is not
> for experienced users only, not for developers, it is for "Help".
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Po Lu]

goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> No, was not asking how to adapt indentation rules to legacy code.
> I asked how to stop the removal of tabs from previous line after
> hitting return.

Maybe that's what you thought, but not what we saw.

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 9:29 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:


> goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > No, was not asking how to adapt indentation rules to legacy code.
> > I asked how to stop the removal of tabs from previous line after
> > hitting return.
>
>
> Maybe that's what you thought, but not what we saw.

It was more of a back and forth thing, trying various things to see what happens.  Still, it was an unusual topic with esoteric needs.  Had nothing to do with changing defaults to everybody.

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:18:24 +0000
> From: goncholden <goncholden@protonmail.com>
> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> 
> I asked how to stop the removal of tabs from previous line after hitting return.  The previous line was legacy code I did not want to touch.  Had no idea about electric-indent.  The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not make sense disabling automatic indentation.

Lies and insinuations.

Anyone who wants an independent opinion of my "help" is invited to
read the archives of this thread.

> Even though mentioning electric-indent-mode would have solved my problem so that I can continue with what I need to do.

You never explained your problem well enough for me to understand that
the problem was with the previous line.  You talked about pressing TAB
that mysteriously caused tab characters to be deleted, and about your
need to have TAB insert a literal tab character.

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 11.06.22 um 22:02 schrieb goncholden:
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 11:50 PM, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org>  wrote:
>
>
>>> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:15:59 +0000
>>> From: goncholdengoncholden@protonmail.com
>>> Cc:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
>>>
>>>> Emacs doesn't impose any style. By "style" I meant how many columns
>>>> should each construct be indented. In Emacs, you can set all the
>>>> parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
>>>> can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
>>>> Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
>>>> automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
>>>> customizations.
>>> Let me rephrase again. Emacs imposes indentation rules by requiring said customisations.
>>
>> Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
>> could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
>> suit the indentation style. That's a win by any measure.
> That the problem you are taking ages to understand.  "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.
>
>>> The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.
>>
>> It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
>> file you posted.
> No, because there are thousands of files.  That was just an example to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single style.  Not true.
>
>> Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
>> the defaults, like this:
>>
>> C-x h
>> C-M-\
>>
>> and then keep making changes without any customizations.
> That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code changes.  Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a style on legacy code.  It should be able to go along with no style.
>
> The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to a single formatting scheme.  Legacy code does not even subscribe to that.  They only had simple editors.  If I introduce tabs with
> "C-q TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses return at the end of the line.
>
> Emacs is acting like a dictator.
>

Hmm, seems you stumbled over a mistake.  That's what I call 
"electric-indent-mode turned on by default".

While freedom obviously doesn't prevent mistakes, --given also the 
possibility I'm wrong in this judgement--, you hardly find a tool such 
easily to tweak along your wishes like Emacs.

So, don't give up.


>

Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 11:55 PM, Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@easy-emacs.de> wrote:


> Am 11.06.22 um 22:02 schrieb goncholden:
>
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Saturday, June 11th, 2022 at 11:50 PM, Eli Zaretskiieliz@gnu.org wrote:
> >
> > > > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2022 11:15:59 +0000
> > > > From: goncholdengoncholden@protonmail.com
> > > > Cc:help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > >
> > > > > Emacs doesn't impose any style. By "style" I meant how many columns
> > > > > should each construct be indented. In Emacs, you can set all the
> > > > > parameters of the style one by one via the menu I mentioned, and you
> > > > > can do that according to the style used by whoever wrote these files.
> > > > > Then you save your customizations, and Emacs will henceforth
> > > > > automatically indent according to the style you defined by your
> > > > > customizations.
> > > > > Let me rephrase again. Emacs imposes indentation rules by requiring said customisations.
> > >
> > > Emacs requires you to customize, once, the indentation so that it
> > > could thereafter help you by indenting everything automatically to
> > > suit the indentation style. That's a win by any measure.
> > > That the problem you are taking ages to understand. "Emacs requires you to customize", the origin of the problem.
> >
> > > > The question about how many columns should each construct be indented, has no answer.
> > >
> > > It should be possible to answer that question by just examining the
> > > file you posted.
> > > No, because there are thousands of files. That was just an example to show how emacs takes over the file, disallowing tabs and certain formatting because it assumes that fortran files have a single style. Not true.
> >
> > > Alternatively, you could just reindent the entire file according to
> > > the defaults, like this:
> > >
> > > C-x h
> > > C-M-\
> > >
> > > and then keep making changes without any customizations.
> > > That would destroy the possibilities of easily detecting code changes. Only want emacs to recognise that one cannot impose a style on legacy code. It should be able to go along with no style.
> >
> > The mantra that things can always be customised implies observance to a single formatting scheme. Legacy code does not even subscribe to that. They only had simple editors. If I introduce tabs with
> > "C-q TAB", all those tabs get removed by emacs as soon as one presses return at the end of the line.
> >
> > Emacs is acting like a dictator.
>
>
> Hmm, seems you stumbled over a mistake. That's what I call
> "electric-indent-mode turned on by default".
>
> While freedom obviously doesn't prevent mistakes, --given also the
> possibility I'm wrong in this judgement--, you hardly find a tool such
> easily to tweak along your wishes like Emacs.
>
> So, don't give up.

Right.  Thus the insistence rather than taking the advice of choosing a different editor.  Managed to find what has to be done.  Thank you.

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 11:48 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


> > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:18:24 +0000
> > From: goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com
> > Cc: Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> >
> > I asked how to stop the removal of tabs from previous line after hitting return. The previous line was legacy code I did not want to touch. Had no idea about electric-indent. The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not make sense disabling automatic indentation.
>
>
> Lies and insinuations.
>
> Anyone who wants an independent opinion of my "help" is invited to
> read the archives of this thread.

Is telling me that disabling automatic indentation does not make sense a lie too ???

> > Even though mentioning electric-indent-mode would have solved my problem so that I can continue with what I need to do.
>
>
> You never explained your problem well enough for me to understand that
> the problem was with the previous line. You talked about pressing TAB
> that mysteriously caused tab characters to be deleted, and about your
> need to have TAB insert a literal tab character.

Go read the archives !  The problem was with the previous line.  Then I started trying to insert multiple literal tabs, which were getting removed even when using literal tabs with `C-q TAB`.

There is no point to continue arguing over it.  Asking to disable something is not nonsense.  Your precept about choosing another editor prevented you from appreciating the validity of my assertions.  I could be more pragmatic and harshly critical of certain strategies, but of help to you and the project if we can laugh it off whilst still taking the technical comments on-board.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> There are many options in Emacs, and to find the one with indentation
> is really difficult. I do not think that you would easily find it out
> without asking on mailing list.

Try the apropos commands, including even
`M-x apropos-documentation indent'.  `C-u'
tells you even more.

Try `i indent' in the Emacs FAQ (`C-h C-f') or
the Emacs manual (`C-h r').  Especially with
`substring' completion style.
___

But if you want _less_, not more, then you have
to think about what it is you really want and
don't want.  You need to filter the mass of
indentation possibilities based on your own
requirements and preferences.  That means
thinking about what you actually do, and what
you really need.  It's about the particular
"less" you're looking for.

If you can't easily specify well what it is
you're looking for, then yeah, the search space
is large, and you're reduced to starting with a
wide-scoped shotgun.  At least Emacs provides
you with such shotguns.
___

Of course, one person's must-have, A+ feature,
including a feature thought to be aimed at
novices in particular (e.g. to attract them to
Emacs or to simplify learning), can be another
person's don't-need or don't-want.

`electric-indent-mode' is a case in point.  It
was touted, in particular, as providing behavior
that most users expect "nowadays".  Instead of
Emacs's longstanding use of `C-j' to insert a
newline and indent, that behavior was given to
`RET'.

It was figured that `C-j' as the newline char
was esoteric knowledge and hard to discover, and
that `RET' is instead what everyone expects now.

(Personally, I turned off `electric-indent-mode'
as soon as it was changed to be on by default.
And I argued against that change.)
___

I've just filed enhancement request (bug) #55945,
asking that `electric-indent-mode' be mentioned
explicitly in the Emacs FAQ.
___

There's also nothing wrong with asking on a
mailing list, online forum, or Q&A site.

Clear questions typically get clear and helpful
answers.  See above: being able to say clearly
what you want or want to know is 90% of the
battle.

But asking over and over, with zero change in
the question detail or scope, and without
listening to helpful or well-intended responses
- or not reading what's written in the help/doc
- no, that doesn't help much.

Ask clearly, knowing your needs, and listen
carefully to the responses.  If you're careful,
and if you think you're not getting helped,
you'll be able to tell what others are hearing
in your questions, and how that differs from
what you think you asked.  Read what you asked
with an eye to understanding what others might
think you're asking.

Wanting to learn and understand is different
from wanting to vent.  If someone wants to
learn, it's pretty likely that help will be
found.  There are tons of Emacs users - new
and old, who go out of their way to help others.

For some reason, Emacs is rich that way: users
like to teach/help others.  There are zillions
of intros, cheat-sheets, demos, snippits, blogs,
videos, posted init-files,... at all levels of
introduction and experience.
___

You'll note that the difficulty of posing clear
questions - being able to get across what you
really want to ask - isn't particular to Emacs.

Pretty much every website that provides a space
for asking and answering questions has a page
that offers advice about how to ask better
questions.  And they all give similar advice.

Why?  Because they all get a number of poorly
expressed questions that waste time and energy,
seem to go nowhere, and can lead to people
losing interest in the venue because the useful
info (signal) can get lost in a flood of noise.

RE: [External] : Re: Spaces rather than tabs by a major mode hook

[Drew Adams]

> I cannot find anything about indentation in Emacs GUI menu.

(I assume you mean menu-bar menu `Options'.)

Consider filing an enhancement request to add what
you think would help there: `M-x report-emacs-bug'.

But `M-x customize-option indent' tells you there
are quite a few options dealing with indentation.
It shows me these in Emacs 26 alone:

Info-fontify-indented-text-chars
Info-fontify-indented-text-manuals
c-indent-comment-alist
c-indent-comments-syntactically-p
c-label-minimum-indentation
c-special-indent-hook
c-syntactic-indentation
c-syntactic-indentation-in-macros
c-tab-always-indent
custom-buffer-indent
electric-indent-mode
fill-individual-varying-indent
fortran-comment-indent-char
fortran-comment-indent-style
fortran-comment-line-extra-indent
fortran-continuation-indent
fortran-do-indent
fortran-if-indent
fortran-line-number-indent
fortran-minimum-statement-indent-fixed
fortran-minimum-statement-indent-tab
fortran-structure-indent
indent-tabs-mode
js-chain-indent
js-curly-indent-offset
js-expr-indent-offset
js-indent-align-list-continuation
js-indent-first-init
js-indent-level
js-paren-indent-offset
js-square-indent-offset
js-switch-indent-offset
lisp-backquote-indentation
lisp-body-indent
lisp-indent-backquote-substitution-mode
lisp-indent-function
lisp-indent-maximum-backtracking
lisp-indent-offset
lisp-lambda-list-keyword-parameter-indentation
lisp-loop-forms-indentation
lisp-loop-keyword-indentation
lisp-simple-loop-indentation
lisp-tag-body-indentation
lisp-tag-indentation
mail-indentation-spaces
message-indent-citation-function
message-indentation-spaces
speedbar-indentation-width
standard-indent
tab-always-indent

If you file an enhancement request for menu
`Options', you'll want to think about just what
you envision for "[some]thing about indentation
in Emacs GUI menu."

> And Emacs users will stick to their habits and will say, well, if you
> wish to customize anything use setq or customize options. However, it
> may reject users or create esoteric impressions, that Emacs is not for
> everybody, but rather for advanced users.

The difficulty is not so much providing something
for everyone.  The difficulty, even impossibility,
is providing just what an arbitrary person might
want/need - immediately, directly, effortlessly.

It's about discoverability, but also ease of use
once discovered.  It's a big challenge, whatever
the application/interface.  Emacs does a pretty
good job tackling the problem, I think.  And
anyone can suggest improvements.

When you move from the point of view of "MOI" and
your individual, immediate needs to the challenge
of providing everything for everyone, easily and
more or less directly, you see that things are
not so simple and that there are tradeoffs.

Emacs is not your typical UI/editor/....  That's
for sure.  Most of us would say "Thank goodness".
But no one's required to stay with Emacs or love
it.  Some people like Ferrari's; some prefer
pickup trucks.  That's normal.  Vive la difference!

> So, tell me, how am I supposed as user to get some indentation
> settings without going through bushes of torns until I come to full
> understanding what is going on?

Apropos commands, help (menu-bar menu, `C-h'
commands), `i' in manuals.  Online forums and
Q&A sites, mailing lists, googling.

How do you find help for anything?  The bigger
the repository you're asking, the wider the
search space.  Think about googling: learning
to do it well makes a big difference - poor
asking results in poor help.  Pounding the
table typically doesn't help.

> By the way, when I click "More" the function `electric-indent-mode' on
> that place is not linked to anything, I cannot just click on it to
> understand it, and what follows is that ... I simply cannot find a common
> option, I cannot find it, even though I used customization search
> feature, I wrote "indent" and I got bunch of nonsense, no real
> guidance, I cannot possibly do it, neither I can understand "how to
> see `electric-indent-mode' command for a description of this minor
> mode".

File an enhancement request if you have a
concrete suggestion for improvement.  Just
howling in the dark doesn't help anyone much.

RE: [External] : Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Drew Adams]

> How I see it: user did not express himself about "indentation" but
> tried in his own words to explain what is happening and what is
> desired.

That's fine, and normal.  But when he felt that
his words weren't resulting in the info he felt
would help, he made little/no effort to improve
the communication.  Repeating the same words,
over and over, and in multiple venues, instead
gave the same result over and over, here & there.

> We cannot expect of users new to Emacs to know what is
> electric-indent-mode as that is too high expectation...
> We cannot tell to users "why you did not ask about
> electric-indent-mode" as that means we have too high expectations.

Of course.  I don't think anyone expected that.
You're raising a straw man, or preaching to the
choir.  People here and on web sites made a
good-faith attempt to understand what he was
asking/needing, and answering that.

> We cannot even expect users to read the manual first before asking on
> the mailing list for help. As by reading manual one would find out
> that indentation is automatic.

Of course.  The manual is an aid.  But it's
generally not First Aid.

> I use Emacs long time, and I did not know that indentation is
> automatic until I read the manual yesterday to find out about it. I
> was under impression that I have set the indentation in my init.el and
> forgot about it.
> 
> We can't have too high expectations on this mailing list. This is not
> for experienced users only, not for developers, it is for "Help".

Of course.

Here's what helps, IMO.  Start by learning how
to _Ask Emacs_.  The basics of that include the
help commands (menu-bar menu `Help', `C-h' keys).

If `RET' results in behavior that you don't like
or don't understand, use `C-h k' to find out what
that behavior is, and how to prevent it or change
it in some way.

If the first reaction each time is just to ask a
_from-scratch_ question in a forum, you'll get
help, but the help won't be nearly as quick,
helpful, educational, and efficient as if you ask
Emacs first, to get some background info at least.  

Then ask a question based on that info.  In
Fortran mode `C-h RET' tells me that `RET' invokes
command `newline', and it tells me what that key
does.

AND it says that if I'm in `electric-indent-mode'
(gee, what's that?) then:

 this indents the final new line that it adds,
 and reindents the preceding line.  To just insert
 a newline, use M-x electric-indent-just-newline.

And it tells me about other modes, and variables,
that also affect the behavior.

And following the `electric-indent-mode' link
tells me more about that mode, including how to
turn it off and how to change its behavior.

Having done a little due diligence, starting
from `C-h RET' would, I'm certain, have produced
a clearer question from OP - one that would have
resulted in help that OP would have found
satisfactory, instead of resulting in frustration
and anger here and there.

It's not about Emacs or Emacs experts trying to
force anything on OP (Emacs the "dictator").
It's about the best way for OP to help himself
and help others help him.

And again, unhelpful, belligerent communication
might well result in less help for OP in the
long run, i.e., for other questions.
___

Yes, asking Emacs is itself a skill to be learned.
Fortunately, the very basics are pretty simple
and easy to discover.  And the more you learn the
easier it gets.  And the more you can (and will)
end up helping others with their problems.

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Emanuel Berg]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how
>> powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not make
>> sense disabling automatic indentation.
>
> [...] Anyone who wants an independent opinion of my "help"
> is invited to read the archives of this thread.

Hang on, maybe he is right, if you just go around bragging
about Emacs power and how customizable it is, that's
a bahvior that will backfire, and maybe that is what we are
seeing right now?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: Netiquette is way to go

[tomas]

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On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 11:05:24PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >> The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how
> >> powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not make
> >> sense disabling automatic indentation.
> >
> > [...] Anyone who wants an independent opinion of my "help"
> > is invited to read the archives of this thread.
> 
> Hang on, maybe he is right,

I'm convinced you're wrong. The amount of patience Eli has put
into this person is, to me, awe-inspiring.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: Netiquette is way to go

[Emanuel Berg]

tomas wrote:

>>>> The "help" I got was that of Eli, bragging about how
>>>> powerful and customisable emacs is and how it does not
>>>> make sense disabling automatic indentation.
>>>
>>> [...] Anyone who wants an independent opinion of my "help"
>>> is invited to read the archives of this thread.
>> 
>> Hang on, maybe he is right,
>
> I'm convinced you're wrong. The amount of patience Eli has
> put into this person is, to me, awe-inspiring.

Let's just say all that bragging and boasting is a way of
drawing attention to the cause while simultaneously
humiliating the opposition.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal